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chadk

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Excellent post Candy. What is great is that we can even have these debates in our great country. We are not perfect, but we are the best. You and I may disagree on some very important areas, but we are free to disagree and I love that. Freedom and liberty are what this country is about.

Not to side track this anymore on the founding fathers stuff, but I think this is interesting along those lines.


HRES 397 IH
111th CONGRESS
1st Session
H. RES. 397
Affirming the rich spiritual and religious history of our Nation's founding and subsequent history and expressing support for designation of
the first week in May as `America's Spiritual Heritage Week' for the appreciation of and education on America's history of religious faith.
IN THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
May 4, 2009


Affirming the rich spiritual and religious history of our Nation's founding and subsequent history and expressing support for designation of
the first week in May as `America's Spiritual Heritage Week' for the appreciation of and education on America's history of religious faith.
Whereas religious faith was not only important in official American life during the periods of discovery, exploration, colonization, and
growth but has also been acknowledged and incorporated into all 3 branches of the Federal Government from their very beginning;
Whereas the Supreme Court of the United States affirmed this self-evident fact in a unanimous ruling declaring `This is a religious people .
. . From the discovery of this continent to the present hour, there is a single voice making this affirmation';
Whereas political scientists have documented that the most frequently cited source in the political period known as The Founding Era was
the Bible;
Whereas the first act of America's first Congress in 1774 was to ask a minister to open with prayer and to lead Congress in the reading of
4 chapters of the Bible;
Whereas Congress regularly attended church and Divine service together en masse;
Whereas throughout the American Founding, Congress frequently appropriated money for missionaries and for religious instruction, a
practice that Congress repeated for decades after the passage of the Constitution and the First Amendment;
Whereas in 1776, Congress approved the Declaration of Independence with its 4 direct religious acknowledgments referring to God as the
Creator (`All people are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of
happiness'), the Lawgiver (`the laws of nature and nature's God'), the Judge (`appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world'), and the
Protector (`with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence');
Whereas upon approving the Declaration of Independence, John Adams declared that the Fourth of July `ought to be commemorated as
the day of deliverance by solemn acts of devotion to God Almighty';
Whereas 4 days after approving the Declaration, the Liberty Bell was rung;
Whereas the Liberty Bell was named for the Biblical inscription from Leviticus 25:10 emblazoned around it: `Proclaim liberty throughout
the land, to all the inhabitants thereof';
Whereas in 1777, Congress, facing a National shortage of `Bibles for our schools, and families, and for the public worship of God in our
churches,' announced that they `desired to have a Bible printed under their care & by their encouragement' and therefore ordered 20,000
copies of the Bible to be imported `into the different ports of the States of the Union';
Whereas in 1782, Congress pursued a plan to print a Bible that would be `a neat edition of the Holy Scriptures for the use of schools' and
therefore approved the production of the first English language Bible printed in America that contained the congressional endorsement that
`the United States in Congress assembled . . . recommend this edition of the Bible to the inhabitants of the United States';
Whereas in 1782, Congress adopted (and has reaffirmed on numerous subsequent occasions) the National Seal with its Latin motto
`Annuit Coeptis,' meaning `God has favored our undertakings,' along with the eye of Providence in a triangle over a pyramid, the eye and
the motto `allude to the many signal interpositions of Providence in favor of the American cause';
Whereas the 1783 Treaty of Paris that officially endied the Revolution and established America as an independent begins with the
appellation `In the name of the most holy and undivided Trinity';
Whereas in 1787, at the Constitutional Convention in Philadelphia, Benjamin Franklin declared, `God governs in the affairs of men. And if a
sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid? . . . Without His concurring aid,
we shall succeed in this political building no better than the builders of Babel';
Whereas the delegates to the Constitutional Convention concluded their work by in effect placing a religious punctuation mark at the end
of the Constitution in the Attestation Clause, noting not only that they had completed the work with `the unanimous consent of the States
present' but they had done so `in the Year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and eighty seven';
Whereas James Madison declared that he saw the finished Constitution as a product of `the finger of that Almighty Hand which has been
so frequently and signally extended to our relief in the critical stages of the Revolution,' and George Washington viewed it as `little short of
a miracle,' and Benjamin Franklin believed that its writing had been `influenced, guided, and governed by that omnipotent, omnipresent,
and beneficent Ruler, in Whom all inferior spirits live, and move, and have their being';
Whereas, from 1787 to 1788, State conventions to ratify the United States Constitution not only began with prayer but even met in church
buildings;
Whereas in 1795, during construction of the Capitol, a practice was instituted whereby `public worship is now regularly administered at
the Capitol, every Sunday morning, at 11 o'clock';
Whereas in 1789, the first Federal Congress, the Congress that framed the Bill of Rights, including the First Amendment, appropriated
Federal funds to pay chaplains to pray at the opening of all sessions, a practice that has continued to this day, with Congress not only
funding its congressional chaplains but also the salaries and operations of more than 4,500 military chaplains;
Whereas in 1789, Congress, in the midst of framing the Bill of Rights and the First Amendment, passed the first Federal law touching
education, declaring that `Religion, morality, and knowledge, being necessary to good government and the happiness of mankind, schools
and the means of education shall forever be encouraged';
Whereas in 1789, on the same day that Congress finished drafting the First Amendment, it requested President Washington to declare a
National day of prayer and thanksgiving, resulting in the first Federal official Thanksgiving proclamation that declared `it is the duty of all
nations to acknowledge the providence of Almighty God, to obey His will, to be grateful for His benefits, and humbly to implore His
protection and favor';
Whereas in 1800, Congress enacted naval regulations requiring that Divine service be performed twice every day aboard `all ships and
vessels in the navy,' with a sermon preached each Sunday;
Whereas in 1800, Congress approved the use of the just-completed Capitol structure as a church building, with Divine services to be held
each Sunday in the Hall of the House, alternately administered by the House and Senate chaplains;
Whereas in 1853, Congress declared that congressional chaplains have a `duty . . . to conduct religious services weekly in the Hall of the
House of Representatives';
Whereas by 1867, the church at the Capitol was the largest church in Washington, DC, with up to 2,000 people a week attending Sunday
service in the Hall of the House;
Whereas by 1815, over 2,000 official governmental calls to prayer had been issued at both the State and the Federal levels, with
thousands more issued since 1815;
Whereas in 1853, the United States Senate declared that the Founding Fathers `had no fear or jealousy of religion itself, nor did they wish
to see us an irreligious people . . . they did not intend to spread over all the public authorities and the whole public action of the nation the
dead and revolting spectacle of atheistical apathy';
Whereas in 1854, the United States House of Representatives declared `It [religion] must be considered as the foundation on which the
whole structure rests . . . Christianity; in its general principles, is the great conservative element on which we must rely for the purity and
permanence of free institutions';
Whereas in 1864, by law Congress added `In God We Trust' to American coinage;
Whereas in 1864, Congress passed an act authorizing each State to display statues of 2 of its heroes in the United States Capitol, resulting
in numerous statues of noted Christian clergymen and leaders at the Capitol, including Gospel ministers such as the Revs. James A.
Garfield, John Peter Muhlenberg, Jonathan Trumbull, Roger Williams, Jason Lee, Marcus Whitman, and Martin Luther King Jr., Gospel
theologians such as Roger Sherman, Catholic priests such as Father Damien, Jacques Marquette, Eusebio Kino, and Junipero Serra,
Catholic nuns such as Mother Joseph, and numerous other religious leaders;
Whereas in 1870, the Federal Government made Christmas (a recognition of the birth of Christ, an event described by the U.S. Supreme
Court as `acknowledged in the Western World for 20 centuries, and in this country by the people, the Executive Branch, Congress, and the
courts for 2 centuries') and Thanksgiving as official holidays;
Whereas, beginning in 1904 and continuing for the next half-century, the Federal Gvernment printed and distributed The Life and Morals of
Jesus of Nazareth for the use of Members of Congress because of the important teachings it contained;
Whereas in 1931, Congress by law adopted the Star-Spangled Banner as the official National Anthem, with its phrases such as `may the
Heav'n-rescued land Praise the Power that hath made and preserved us a nation,' and `this be our motto, `In God is our trust!';
Whereas in 1954, Congress by law added the phrase `one nation under God' to the Pledge of Allegiance;
Whereas in 1954, a special Congressional Prayer Room was added to the Capitol with a kneeling bench, an altar, an open Bible, an
inspiring stained-glass window with George Washington kneeling in prayer, the declaration of Psalm 16:1: `Preserve me, O God, for in
Thee do I put my trust,' and the phrase `This Nation Under God' displayed above the kneeling, prayerful Washington;
Whereas in 1956, Congress by law made `In God We Trust' the National Motto, and added the phrase to American currency;
Whereas the constitutions of each of the 50 States, either in the preamble or body, explicitly recognize or express gratitude to God;
Whereas America's first Presidential Inauguration incorporated 7 specific religious activities, including--
(1) the use of the Bible to administer the oath;
(2) affirming the religious nature of the oath by the adding the prayer `So help me God!' to the oath;
(3) inaugural prayers offered by the President;
(4) religious content in the inaugural address;
(5) civil leaders calling the people to prayer or acknowledgment of God;
(6) inaugural worship services attended en masse by Congress as an official part of congressional activities; and
(7) clergy-led inaugural prayers, activities which have been replicated in whole or part by every subsequent President;
Whereas President George Washington declared `Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality
are indispensable supports';
Whereas President John Adams, one of only 2 signers of the Bill of Rights and First Amendment, declared `As the safety and prosperity of
nations ultimately and essentially depend on the protection and the blessing of Almighty God, and the national acknowledgment of this
truth is not only an indispensable duty which the people owe to Him';
Whereas President Jefferson not only attended Divine services at the Capitol throughout his presidency and had the Marine Band play at
the services, but during his administration church services were also begun in the War Department and the Treasury Department, thus
allowing worshippers on any given Sunday the choice to attend church at either the United States Capitol, the War Department, or the
Treasury Department if they so desired;
Whereas Thomas Jefferson urged local governments to make land available specifically for Christian purposes, provided Federal funding for
missionary work among Indian tribes, and declared that religious schools would receive `the patronage of the government';
Whereas President Andrew Jackson declared that the Bible `is the rock on which our Republic rests';
Whereas President Abraham Lincoln declared that the Bible `is the best gift God has given to men . . . But for it, we could not know right
from wrong'
Whereas President William McKinley declared that `Our faith teaches us that there is no safer reliance than upon the God of our fathers,
Who has so singularly favored the American people in every national trial and Who will not forsake us so long as we obey His
commandments and walk humbly in His footsteps';
Whereas President Teddy Roosevelt declared `The Decalogue and the Golden Rule must stand as the foundation of every successful effort
to better either our social or our political life';
Whereas President Woodrow Wilson declared that `America was born to exemplify that devotion to the elements of righteousness which
are derived from the revelations of Holy Scripture';
Whereas President Herbert Hoover declared that `American life is builded, and can alone survive, upon . . . [the] fundamental philosophy
announced by the Savior nineteen centuries ago';
Whereas President Franklin D. Roosevelt not only led the Nation in a 6 minute prayer during D-Day on June 6, 1944, but he also declared
that `If we will not prepare to give all that we have and all that we are to preserve Christian civilization in our land, we shall go to
destruction';
Whereas President Harry S. Truman declared that `The fundamental basis of this Nation's law was given to Moses on the Mount. The
fundamental basis of our Bill of Rights comes from the teachings which we get from Exodus and St. Matthew, from Isaiah and St. Paul';
Whereas President Harry S. Truman told a group touring Washington, DC, that `You will see, as you make your rounds, that this Nation
was established by men who believed in God. . . . You will see the evidence of this deep religious faith on every hand';
Whereas President Dwight D. Eisenhower declared that `Without God there could be no American form of government, nor an American
way of life. Recognition of the Supreme Being is the first, the most basic, expression of Americanism. Thus, the founding fathers of
America saw it, and thus with God's help, it will continue to be' in a declaration later repeated with approval by President Gerald Ford;
Whereas President John F. Kennedy declared that `The rights of man come not from the generosity of the state but from the hand of God';
Whereas President Ronald Reagan, after noting `The Congress of the United States, in recognition of the unique contribution of the Bible in
shaping the history and character of this Nation and so many of its citizens, has . . . requested the President to designate the year 1983 as
the `Year of the Bible', officially declared 1983 as `The Year of the Bible';
Whereas every other President has similarly recognized the role of God and religious faith in the public life of America;
Whereas all sessions of the United States Supreme Court begin with the Court's Marshal announcing, `God save the United States and this
honorable court';
Whereas a regular and integral part of official activities in the Federal courts, including the United States Supreme Court, was the inclusion
of prayer by a minister of the Gospel;
Whereas the United States Supreme Court has declared throughout the course of our Nation's history that the United States is `a Christian
country', `a Christian nation', `a Christian people', `a religious people whose institutions presuppose a Supreme Being', and that `we
cannot read into the Bill of Rights a philosophy of hostility to religion';
Whereas Justice John Jay, an author of the Federalist Papers and original Justice of the United States Supreme Court, urged `The most
effectual means of securing the continuance of our civil and religious liberties is always to remember with reverence and gratitude the
Source from which they flow';
Whereas Justice James Wilson, a signer of the Constitution, declared that `Human law must rest its authority ultimately upon the authority
of that law which is Divine . . . Far from being rivals or enemies, religion and law are twin sisters, friends, and mutual assistants';
Whereas Justice William Paterson, a signer of the Constitution, declared that `Religion and morality . . . [are] necessary to good
government, good order, and good laws';
Whereas President George Washington, who passed into law the first legal acts organizing the Federal judiciary, asked, `where is the
security for property, for reputation, for life, if the sense of religious obligation desert the oaths in the courts of justice?';
Whereas some of the most important monuments, buildings, and landmarks in Washington, DC, include religious words, symbols, and
imagery;
Whereas in the United States Capitol the declaration `In God We Trust' is prominently displayed in both the United States House and
Senate Chambers;
Whereas around the top of the walls in the House Chamber appear images of 23 great lawgivers from across the centuries, but Moses (the
lawgiver, who--according to the Bible--originally received the law from God,) is the only lawgiver honored with a full face view, looking
down on the proceedings of the House;
Whereas religious artwork is found throughout the United States Capitol, including in the Rotunda where the prayer service of Christopher
Columbus, the Baptism of Pocahontas, and the prayer and Bible study of the Pilgrims are all prominently displayed; in the Cox Corridor of
the Capitol where the words `America! God shed His grace on thee' are inscribed; at the east Senate entrance with the words `Annuit
Coeptis' which is Latin for `God has favored our undertakings'; and in numerous other locations;
Whereas images of the Ten Commandments are found in many Federal buildings across Washington, DC, including in bronze in the floor of
the National Archives; in a bronze statue of Moses in the Main Reading Room of the Library of Congress; in numerous locations at the U.S.
Supreme Court, including in the frieze above the Justices, the oak door at the rear of the Chamber, the gable apex, and in dozens of
locations on the bronze latticework surrounding the Supreme Court Bar seating;
Whereas in the Washington Monument not only are numerous Bible verses and religious acknowledgments carved on memorial blocks in
the walls, including the phrases: `Holiness to the Lord' (Exodus 28:26, 30:30, Isaiah 23:18, Zechariah 14:20), `Search the Scriptures'
(John 5:39), `The memory of the just is blessed' (Proverbs 10:7), `May Heaven to this Union continue its beneficence', and `In God We
Trust', but the Latin inscription Laus Deo meaning `Praise be to God' is engraved on the monument's capstone;
Whereas of the 5 areas inside the Jefferson Memorial into which Jefferson's words have been carved, 4 are God-centered, including
Jefferson's declaration that `God who gave us life gave us liberty. Can the liberties of a nation be secure when we have removed a
conviction that these liberties are the gift of God? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just, that His justice cannot
sleep forever';
Whereas the Lincoln Memorial contains numerous acknowledgments of God and citations of Bible verses, including the declarations that
`we here highly resolve that . . . this nation under God . . . shall not perish from the earth'; `The Almighty has His own purposes. `Woe
unto the world because of offenses; for it must needs be that offenses come, but woe to that man by whom the offense cometh' (Matthew
18:7), `as was said three thousand years ago, so still it must be said `the judgments of the Lord are true and righteous altogether'
(Psalms 19:9), `one day every valley shall be exalted and every hill and mountain shall be made low, the rough places will be made plain,
and the crooked places will be made straight and the glory of the Lord shall be revealed and all flesh see it together' (Dr. Martin Luther
King's speech, based on Isaiah 40:4-5);
Whereas in the Library of Congress, The Giant Bible of Mainz, and The Gutenberg Bible are on prominent permanent display and etched on
the walls are Bible verses, including: `The light shineth in darkness, and the darkness comprehendeth it not' (John 1:5), `Wisdom is the
principal thing; therefore, get wisdom and with all thy getting, get understanding' (Proverbs 4:7), `What doth the Lord require of thee, but
to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God' (Micah 6:8), and `The heavens declare the Glory of God, and the
firmament showeth His handiwork' (Psalm 19:1);
Whereas numerous other of the most important American government leaders, institutions, monuments, buildings, and landmarks both
openly acknowledge and incorporate religious words, symbols, and imagery into official venues;
Whereas such acknowledgments are even more frequent at the State and local level than at the Federal level, where thousands of such
acknowledgments exist, and
Whereas the first week in May each year would be an appropriate week to designate as `America's Spiritual Heritage Week': Now,
therefore, be it
Resolved, That the United States House of Representatives--
(1) affirms the rich spiritual and diverse religious history of our Nation's founding and subsequent history, including up to the
current day;
(2) recognizes that the religious foundations of faith on which America was built are critical underpinnings of our Nation's most
valuable institutions and form the inseparable foundation for America's representative processes, legal systems, and societal
structures;
(3) rejects, in the strongest possible terms, any effort to remove, obscure, or purposely omit such history from our Nation's
public buildings and educational resources; and
(4) expresses support for designation of a `America's Spiritual Heritage Week' every year for the appreciation of and education
on America's history of religious faith.
 

richalisoviejo

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chadk said:
Freedom and liberty are what this country is about.

You're not quite there yet but with that comment your on the right tract.

Nice cut a paste job but you still haven’t answered the question why gays should not have the same rights as a straight couple. Having six children surely you would want them to be treated equally?

Unfortunately "close-minded" people like to butt into other people's personal lives and believe it's their business to tell Mr. Pierce that he can't be married to his partner of 25 years.

I'm still awaiting as to what harm specifically it will do to society to allow gay marriage; and to what motivates conserviatives to want to deny that right to gays. What is the underlying reason you would prefer a society in which gays could not marry? Please don't appeal to tradition (ie, 'that's the way it's always been done), which is a Logical Fallacy; or appeal to Authority (God wants it that way), which would be another logical fallacy; but explain using logic and plain words.

"Had those who drew and ratified the Due Process Clauses of the Fifth Amendment or the Fourteenth Amendment known the components of liberty in its manifold possibilities, they might have been more specific. They did not presume to have this insight. They knew times can blind us to certain truths and later generations can see that laws once thought necessary and proper in fact serve only to oppress. As the Constitution endures, persons in every generation can invoke its principles in their own search for greater freedom."

http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/02-102.ZO.html
 

chadk

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Rich, you still have not aswered a number of my questions and this is just getting redundant and old. Until you can own up to your mis-statements and answer a few questions posed earlier, there is no point in moving forward.
 

richalisoviejo

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That’s what I meant by your comments when I said pissing in the wind is futile in case you didn’t get it the first time.
 

chadk

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Well, it is clear now then, thanks. Getting you to own up to your mis-statements and answer some of my basic questions surely appears to be a pointless effort.
 

richalisoviejo

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chadk said:
Well, it is clear now then, thanks. Getting you to own up to your mis-statements and answer some of my basic questions surely appears to be a pointless effort.

Very pointless on your part. But I'll let you have the last word, go ahead now I'll wait :)
 

desertsss

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Out of curiousity Chad, which questions did rich not answer. Where does it say that marriage is a right? Is that the one?
 

Candy

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Well, they both seem to avoid directly answering each other's questions or points of debate. I assume this is to make their own points seem stronger and more convinicing (kinda like a politician does). This does seem pointless after awhile (just like an election campaign), especially when both sides refuse to agree to disagree or move on. However, I think that there is a deeper purpose than just the entertainment derived from their bickering. Those of us who have read the thread or even just parts of have taken away new knowledge to process and form opinion with or about, I know I have. Perhaps, this is the value of forums like these. We can use the new information or perspectives to reinforce our current opinions or make adjustments to them, as we choose. I'd to thank both Rich and Chad for such enlightenment (now that sounds like a politician).
 

chadk

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desertsss said:
Out of curiousity Chad, which questions did rich not answer. Where does it say that marriage is a right? Is that the one?

I'm asking rich to admit he was wrong when he made the claim that:

1) DOMA was not law.
2) it is a myth that we are currently and historically a majority Christian nation

And here are the questions that have not been answered:

1) Where does the constitution specifically say that marriage is a right? 2) And then if it is there, you need to see how it is defined.
3) Didn't the DOMA (Defense of Marriage Act) that Clinton signed into law relate to the second part of my question (#2)?
4) Are gays really taking the brunt of discrimination since the dawn of man?
5) At least here in the USA, aren't gays statistically making more money than non-gays?
6) How do you legally define marriage?
7) Who gets to defines 'marriage'?
8) Again, the concept of gay 'marriage' is relatively new. So how could this have been forbidden since the dawn of man? Again, just more drama.
9) And if a Muslim man wants to honor his religion, or a Mormon, or just a free loving hippie and marry several women, who are you to say they can't? If they love each other, shouldn't they be able to? Are you discriminating against a minority group if you don't allow it?
10) Aren't you the one that said earlier that marriage is not just a union centered on offspring? Clearly a couple of brothers or male cousins could marry then if that is your only concern, right? How about if a father and adult daughter choose to get married, but first get sterilized?
It sounds like you are not hestitant to discrimate and define marriage in ways that fit YOUR personal feelings on the subject - but anyone else must be wrong...
11) when and where did I say anything about "the definition of marriage rests on a biological basis"? You keep setting up straw men to knock down. But that one sided type of discussion is getting tiring. Recap - I never mentioned bestiality. I never mentioned non-consenting adult relationships. I never said marriage is a religious institution. I never said marriage is only intended for reproduction.
12) So back to the "marriage is a civil institution dependent on civil law". What do you think people did for marriage before the US gov got involved?
13)What do you think people do for marriage who live in other countries where they don't have civil law dependencies? Marriage transcends government.
14) Looking at your own words - you'll see it took amost 200 years before we decided that schools should not be in the business of leading kids in prayer. 200 years!! If our country was soooo solidly founded on a 'seperation of church and state' as the main driver and key principle, why did it take almost 200 years to address this issue and many others like it?
15) Who here ever mentioned TV evanglists as great Christian role models? What was that tangent about??
16) Do you have a source for your statement that it is a myth that the US has always, from beginning to now, a majority Christian?

Candy said:
Well, they both seem to avoid directly answering each other's questions or points of debate. I assume this is to make their own points seem stronger and more convinicing (kinda like a politician does). This does seem pointless after awhile (just like an election campaign), especially when both sides refuse to agree to disagree or move on. However, I think that there is a deeper purpose than just the entertainment derived from their bickering. Those of us who have read the thread or even just parts of have taken away new knowledge to process and form opinion with or about, I know I have. Perhaps, this is the value of forums like these. We can use the new information or perspectives to reinforce our current opinions or make adjustments to them, as we choose. I'd to thank both Rich and Chad for such enlightenment (now that sounds like a politician).

Candy, you are very welcome :p
 

richalisoviejo

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Thanks Chad I just won a hundred bucks :). You never answered mine, if DOMA was law how did 18,000 gay couples marry in CA? And remember the comment about the wind. Lol.
 

chadk

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Rich, you clearly don't understand DOMA and how it impacts or does not impact individual states.

If I answer the DOMA question, will you answer, say any 1/2 of my questions (you can even pick the half)? Will you admit you were wrong that DOMA was really signed into law. Will you admit that there is no myth regarding the historical and current Chrstian majority in our country?
 

richalisoviejo

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First of all DOMA is not law when challenged by the Supreme Court. And as far as your Christian majority, read what I said about separation of church and state. You have no argument, your morally thinking but the Supreme Court has already ruled the Moral Majority cannot impose their will upon the majority. Which makes the California ruling Unconstitutional.

This is not a Christian nation.

The Constitution will always reign supreme.

Now enough of your nonconsensual ramblings. The conservative rubbish is finally out of power.
 

chadk

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Rich, your emotions are getting the better of you.

I'm simply trying to establish some facts.

DOMA was signed into law. That is a factual statement. Agree or disagree?

The US has always had and still has a Christian majority. Agree or not?

I know it is hard, but please show some maturity and stop lowering this discussion to name calling and other insults.
 

desertsss

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Hey Chad, what are you basing your knowledge on. Just because the country started one way, doesn't mean that it will stay that way. Do you think that Christianity still is majority here in the US?
 

Candy

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desertsss said:
Hey Chad, what are you basing your knowledge on. Just because the country started one way, doesn't mean that it will stay that way. Do you think that Christianity still is majority here in the US?

Christianity (Christianity includes all denominations including Catholics and Mormons) is the majority Desertsss. Remember that majority means 51%. I don't know the exact percent, but I know it is well over that. The place to get the information is from the US Census.
 

chadk

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Here's the first thing that I got from google that seems to be consistent with others I've seen:

Christian Religious Groups 2001 2008
Catholic 24.5% 25.1%
Baptist 16.3% 15.8%
Mainline Christian
(Methodist, Lutheran, Presbyterian, Episcopalian/Anglican, United Church of Christ, etc.) 17.2% 12.9%
Generic Christian
(Christian Unspecified, Non-Denominational. Christian,
Protestant Unspecified, Evangelical/Born Again) 6.8% 5.0%
Pentecostals/Charismatics
(Pentecostal Unspecified, Assemblies of God, Church of God) 3.8% 3.5%
Total Christian 76.7% 76.0%
 

richalisoviejo

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chadk said:
I know it is hard, but please show some maturity and stop lowering this discussion to name calling and other insults.

Now now don’t get too uptight, what I said about the conservative rubbish being out of power is true. The last elections proved that, this country is no longer under the current regime.
 

dmmj

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you name call and demean your argument IMHO with words like conservative rubbish, and current regime. We could go on and on about politics but I usually like to use TF for discussions about turtles and tortoise I go to other sites to discuss politics myself. You prob would not like it if people reffered to your political beliefs, ( I am pretty sure what they are) the way you do, kindness is a two way street if you want kindness and respect you also have to show it to the other person. My 2 cents

Sorry to keep harping but isn't Pres. Obama against gay marriage also? I seem to remember him during the debate saying that. I know he likes to go back and rearrange the things he says, but if someone could clear it up or what he currently stands for I would appreciate it thank you.
 

Candy

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The current regime is liberal. I believe you are referring to the past regime. It is best to stay out of the muck and stick to the issues.
 

richalisoviejo

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dmmj said:
I usually like to use TF for discussions about turtles and tortoise I go to other sites to discuss politics myself. You prob would not like it if people reffered to your political beliefs, ( I am pretty sure what they are) the way you do, kindness is a two way street if you want kindness and respect you also have to show it to the other person. My 2 cents

Sorry to keep harping but isn't Pres. Obama against gay marriage also? I seem to remember him during the debate saying that. I know he likes to go back and rearrange the things he says, but if someone could clear it up or what he currently stands for I would appreciate it thank you.



First of all if you read if you read the title of this category of the forum you would notice it says “Off Topic” which means it’s not necessarily related to turtle and tortoise discussion. Secondly after Chad’s comments about incest etc trying to compare that to gay marriage I wasn’t looking for his respect. Secondly what does Obama’s stand on Gay marriage have to do with anything? As I stated before Marriage is a civil right protected by the 14th amendment. I see you skimmed over the thread and got stuck on the Conservative comment.
 
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