Pyramiding and overcrowded scutes.

[Speedy101]

Hi,
Speedy came to us when he was 4 years old and already had quite a bit of pyramiding.I have a very grainy, old photo of him the day we got him.He has a few scutes which are overcrowded and his pyramiding is still significant however I know the only thing I can do is try and promote smooth growth from now on.He is a Mediterranean spur thighed tortoise and is 12 year old now so I’m not sure how much growing he has left to do.I’d just like to ask and see if anyone thinks his newer growth is improved.Also I know he has shell discolouration but this has already been discussed in another post.Thank you

 

[Yvonne G]

He looks more like a marginated to me.

I have to say, the difference between then and now is amazing. You've done a great job with this tortoise! Just keep doing what you've been doing.

 

[Yvonne G]

You might try rubbing in some cold pressed coconut oil on those top scutes, but I doubt anything is going to change the way they look.

 

[Speedy101]

He looks more like a marginated to me.

I have to say, the difference between then and now is amazing. You've done a great job with this tortoise! Just keep doing what you've been doing.

Thank you! That makes me very happy to hear that also the reason I said Mediterranean spur is because that is what he is classified as on his birth certificate which was passed down to us.

 

[Tom]

This tortoise has not been raised or cared for correctly. It has Metabolic Bone Disease.

Has it had UV, a good diet, and correct temperatures for the last 8 years with you?

This can't be fixed at this point. He will look like that until the day he dies.

 

[Speedy101]

This tortoise has not been raised or cared for correctly. It has Metabolic Bone Disease.

Has it had UV, a good diet, and correct temperatures for the last 8 years with you?

This can't be fixed at this point. He will look like that until the day he dies.

He lives in our greenhouse with uv light supplement as I know the glass blocks it and has a diet of a variety of weeds.He has always looked like this from what I remember.Also he went to a reptile specialist vet last year and he looked exactly the same as he does now would they have not diagnosed MBD if like you said he has it? They said he was in Good health, they took note of the pyramiding however like I said he had that when we got him.When the uk weather permits it he’s out in the sun all day long.Im still learning everyday how to better his care as he is my first and only tortoise who I got when I was younger.Im 18 now so we’ve grown up together I’d hate to think he wasn’t happy etc.

 

[Tom]

He lives in our greenhouse with uv light supplement as I know the glass blocks it and has a diet of a variety of weeds.He has always looked like this from what I remember.Also he went to a reptile specialist vet last year and he looked exactly the same as he does now would they have not diagnosed MBD if like you said he has it? They said he was in Good health, they took note of the pyramiding however like I said he had that when we got him.When the uk weather permits it he’s out in the sun all day long.Im still learning everyday how to better his care as he is my first and only tortoise who I got when I was younger.Im 18 now so we’ve grown up together I’d hate to think he wasn’t happy etc.

Vets know very little about tortoises and tortoise care.

What type of UV bulb are you using? How close is it to the tortoise? Do you have a UV meter to check it with?

 

[Speedy101]

Vets know very little about tortoises and tortoise care.

What type of UV bulb are you using? How close is it to the tortoise? Do you have a UV meter to check it with?

The vet we took him to was specifically a reptile specialist, tortoises included.We have a 12 percent desert uvb tube light and it’s about 9 inches from him and no we do not have a meter we change it every 5 month to be safe however a meter is something we could improve with.

 

[Tom]

The vet we took him to was specifically a reptile specialist, tortoises included.We have a 12 percent desert uvb tube light and it’s about 9 inches from him and no we do not have a meter we change it every 5 month to be safe however a meter is something we could improve with.

I deal with vets for a living. Reptile specialists too. Most of them know very little about tortoise care and many of them call me for advice. There is no semester on tortoise care in vet school. We see case after case here on the forum of vets doing more harm than good and/or being totally inept. Just be aware that most vets, including reptile vets don't know jack about caring for tortoises. If your made no mention of MBD, then my point is being proven.

9 inches is WAY too close for an Arcadia 12% bulb. Does he ever go near it? If he's got an entire green house to roam, how often is he near the UV source? Without a meter you are just guessing about how much UV is reaching the tortoise. Those bulbs last 2 to 3 years, Replacing every five months is a waste, I'm sad to say.

What is the ambient temperature inside the green house? Does the tortoise have a basking bulb of some sort for heat?

The other components of MBD are diet and calcium. What do you typically feed him, and do you supplement with calcium powder? Cuttle bone?

 

[Speedy101]

I deal with vets for a living. Reptile specialists too. Most of them know very little about tortoise care and many of them call me for advice. There is no semester on tortoise care in vet school. We see case after case here on the forum of vets doing more harm than good and/or being totally inept. Just be aware that most vets, including reptile vets don't know jack about caring for tortoises. If your made no mention of MBD, then my point is being proven.

9 inches is WAY too close for an Arcadia 12% bulb. Does he ever go near it? If he's got an entire green house to roam, how often is he near the UV source? Without a meter you are just guessing about how much UV is reaching the tortoise. Those bulbs last 2 to 3 years, Replacing every five months is a waste, I'm sad to say.

What is the ambient temperature inside the green house? Does the tortoise have a basking bulb of some sort for heat?

The other components of MBD are diet and calcium. What do you typically feed him, and do you supplement with calcium powder? Cuttle bone?

He has cuttle bone which he uses all the time to trim his beak. A daily feed for him might consist of plantain,Viola,dog violets, dandelion(about twice a week) various grasses, clover in his enclosure growing, carrots about once a week for vitamin A I believe and yes we sprinkle calcium few times a week.We do vary the certain weeds this is just off the top of my head. I apologise I might be mistaken about the 9 inches as I don’t usually measure things in inches usually cm,it’s 30 cm from him.He has a basking spot which he lays under daily .He has a humid end of the greenhouse and a dry end and he roams between the different ends to his liking.The ambient temperature is 26 degrees Celsius as we have a heater in there aswell to maintain that.His uv bulb is in line with his basking one so anytime he basks he is under the uv light.

 

[Tom]

He has cuttle bone which he uses all the time to trim his beak. A daily feed for him might consist of plantain,Viola,dog violets, dandelion(about twice a week) various grasses, clover in his enclosure growing, carrots about once a week for vitamin A I believe and yes we sprinkle calcium few times a week.We do vary the certain weeds this is just off the top of my head. I apologise I might be mistaken about the 9 inches as I don’t usually measure things in inches usually cm,it’s 30 cm from him.He has a basking spot which he lays under daily .He has a humid end of the greenhouse and a dry end and he roams between the different ends to his liking.The ambient temperature is 26 degrees Celsius as we have a heater in there aswell to maintain that.His uv bulb is in line with his basking one so anytime he basks he is under the uv light.

Sounds like an excellent diet. 30cm is about 12 inches. We can use the metric system for purposes of conversation here. I use both. My Arcadia 12% bulbs need to be mounted about 50cm over the tortoise to get a nice high level of UV, without it being too much. 30cm would give very high UV readings. Higher than mid day summer sun in the tropics. Too high, in other words.

Something in this tortoises environment has left the carapace extremely desiccated. Your way of housing is unconventional, so not many people have experience with it. Unconventional as it may be, if the correct conditions can be met and maintained, it should be an excellent way to do it. Something has gone awry with your system there and your tortoise's carapace bears the evidence. I'd like to figure this one out if you are willing.

What is the ground temp in summer and in winter? Air temp may be 26C, but how cold is the ground in the greenhouse when there is snow outside? What size and type of basking bulb are you using, and what is the temperature under that at tortoise shell height? Some types of basking bulbs like halogen or spot type bulbs cause extreme desiccation in tortoise carapaces. A tortoise resting on cold ground would be likely to sit under a desiccating warming bulb far too long on a regular basis, while trying in vain to warm its core. Does this sound like a possibility? Worded another way, I try to discourage basking under my bulbs by having a warmer day time ambient temperature. When they are already warm, they bask less. If their plastron were resting on cold ground that was sapping the heat out of them, then they would sit under the basking lamp much longer in an effort to warm up their core. How are you measuring these temperatures? Heat gun? Digital thermometer?

 

[Speedy101]

Sounds like an excellent diet. 30cm is about 12 inches. We can use the metric system for purposes of conversation here. I use both. My Arcadia 12% bulbs need to be mounted about 50cm over the tortoise to get a nice high level of UV, without it being too much. 30cm would give very high UV readings. Higher than mid day summer sun in the tropics. Too high, in other words.

Something in this tortoises environment has left the carapace extremely desiccated. Your way of housing is unconventional, so not many people have experience with it. Unconventional as it may be, if the correct conditions can be met and maintained, it should be an excellent way to do it. Something has gone awry with your system there and your tortoise's carapace bears the evidence. I'd like to figure this one out if you are willing.

What is the ground temp in summer and in winter? Air temp may be 26C, but how cold is the ground in the greenhouse when there is snow outside? What size and type of basking bulb are you using, and what is the temperature under that at tortoise shell height? Some types of basking bulbs like halogen or spot type bulbs cause extreme desiccation in tortoise carapaces. A tortoise resting on cold ground would be likely to sit under a desiccating warming bulb far too long on a regular basis, while trying in vain to warm its core. Does this sound like a possibility? Worded another way, I try to discourage basking under my bulbs by having a warmer day time ambient temperature. When they are already warm, they bask less. If their plastron were resting on cold ground that was sapping the heat out of them, then they would sit under the basking lamp much longer in an effort to warm up their core. How are you measuring these temperatures? Heat gun? Digital thermometer?

We have a digital thermometer and he has a slate under his basking light so that warms up as the day goes by.My spot bulb is a lower watt as I made the mistake of having it too hot, too close a couple of years back which I think is to blame for some discolouration however hopefully I remedied that so the temp at his shell reaches about 32 degrees celcius.We have a heater at ground level and the greenhouse is insulated for the winter so the temps are stable.I will move the UV higher immediately and invest in UV reader.Here in the UK animal colleges definitely have a reptile husbandry included in their teaching as I went to one for year and reptile husbandry was taught in second year which wasn’t able to complete for other reasons, just in relation to the vets, exotics like tortoises is taught.The one I went to had tortoises housed there to involve in practical lessons etc.I know the previous owners kept him in a terrarium as they passed it down to us which I’m afraid we did use for a couple of years before we realised how wrong the advice we were given was and discarded all the pet store advice we had gotten and moved him into the greenhouse which is a very nice size for him.Could that have been the source of the problem? Will he be in any pain? As he is very active and acting is normal, inquisitive self.Could this have happened before he came to us and during the early days we had him?

 

[Tom]

We have a digital thermometer and he has a slate under his basking light so that warms up as the day goes by.My spot bulb is a lower watt as I made the mistake of having it too hot, too close a couple of years back which I think is to blame for some discolouration however hopefully I remedied that so the temp at his shell reaches about 32 degrees celcius.We have a heater at ground level and the greenhouse is insulated for the winter so the temps are stable.I will move the UV higher immediately and invest in UV reader.Here in the UK animal colleges definitely have a reptile husbandry included in their teaching as I went to one for year and reptile husbandry was taught in second year which wasn’t able to complete for other reasons, just in relation to the vets, exotics like tortoises is taught.The one I went to had tortoises housed there to involve in practical lessons etc.I know the previous owners kept him in a terrarium as they passed it down to us which I’m afraid we did use for a couple of years before we realised how wrong the advice we were given was and discarded all the pet store advice we had gotten and moved him into the greenhouse which is a very nice size for him.Could that have been the source of the problem? Will he be in any pain? As he is very active and acting is normal, inquisitive self.Could this have happened before he came to us and during the early days we had him?

Pyramiding is caused by growth in conditions that are too dry. In addition to being raised on dry substrate in a dry enclosure, the wrong types of bulbs can also cause conditions on the carapace to be "too dry" and cause pyramiding even in high humidity enclosures. We see this with mercury vapor bulbs, spot bulbs and halogens. This could certainly have happened and been well established in those first four years, but the next 8 years don't appear to have improved the situation. I mean you no insult by saying this. It just is what it is. My goal is to figure it out, learn from your situation, and help improve things there if possible.

Contrary to what you will read in books and all over the internet, pyramiding is NOT caused by food, neither the wrong type nor the wrong quantity, calcium, lack of UV, too much UV, or any of the other myriad incorrect guesses that have been made over the decades.

MBD is caused by a lack of calcium, or a lack of D3 that is needed to utilize the calcium. With your excellent feeding regime and terrific calcium supplementation, I don't think lack of calcium is the issue. You also have UV covered, and possible covered too well given the proximity of the bulb. The question here is: What happened before you got the tortoise, and in those early years when you first got it? Did the previous owners feed it lettuce and not supplement calcium? What UV source, if any, did they use? What was your routine early on as far as diet and UV?

 

[Speedy101]

Pyramiding is caused by growth in conditions that are too dry. In addition to being raised on dry substrate in a dry enclosure, the wrong types of bulbs can also cause conditions on the carapace to be "too dry" and cause pyramiding even in high humidity enclosures. We see this with mercury vapor bulbs, spot bulbs and halogens. This could certainly have happened and been well established in those first four years, but the next 8 years don't appear to have improved the situation. I mean you no insult by saying this. It just is what it is. My goal is to figure it out, learn from your situation, and help improve things there if possible.

Contrary to what you will read in books and all over the internet, pyramiding is NOT caused by food, neither the wrong type nor the wrong quantity, calcium, lack of UV, too much UV, or any of the other myriad incorrect guesses that have been made over the decades.

MBD is caused by a lack of calcium, or a lack of D3 that is needed to utilize the calcium. With your excellent feeding regime and terrific calcium supplementation, I don't think lack of calcium is the issue. You also have UV covered, and possible covered too well given the proximity of the bulb. The question here is: What happened before you got the tortoise, and in those early years when you first got it? Did the previous owners feed it lettuce and not supplement calcium? What UV source, if any, did they use? What was your routine early on as far as diet and UV?

I couldn’t tell you how they treat him I’m not sure if they explained much to my parents when they picked him up.I know the photo of him when I first got him isn’t the best but u can visibly see the raised scutes then.I know that we have always always give him a calcium supplement with his food, however the diet I will admit we gave him in the early days was bagged salads from the shop too much sugar perhaps aswell,not the best I know but I didn’t know any better at that moment in time but I did do my very best to fix that when I realised but he has always had calcium supplement.I would bet lettuce and things like that would have been the staple in his diet before us as that seems to be a common misconception and they passed him over to us has they couldn’t keep up with his care.He was kept dry for a while with us and I know this is reason for his pyramiding again this was wrongly acquired information from numerous caresheets.However he had pyramiding when he came to us so I’m guessing that was the situation there aswell.He has always had the same UV as he does today.I know he uses his cuttlebone because I’ll go in to see his beak covered in white and he had an overgrown beak a few years ago which he remedied himself with the cuttlebone.Is his new growth still pyramiding to you? Also I try not to over feed as I’ve heard fast growth can cause deformities too.He walks perfectly, raised high off the ground and his shell is very hard.Id like to say thank you for taking the time to try and help aswell because honestly I do just want him to have the best life he can as I love him to bits. I know I can’t change the way he looks or the past but I’m open to all and any improvements that can be made as like I said I’m still learning everyday.Thanks again.

 

[Tom]

Sounds like what you are doing now is great. Good food, large enclosure, proper lighting, etc...

Get that Solarmeter 6.5 and set your UV tube at the correct height, and check the temperature of the ground with an infrared temp gun. That's all I can see that needs to change.

 

[Speedy101]

Sounds like what you are doing now is great. Good food, large enclosure, proper lighting, etc...

Get that Solarmeter 6.5 and set your UV tube at the correct height, and check the temperature of the ground with an infrared temp gun. That's all I can see that needs to change.

Yes I will fix the uv straight away however I might not be able to obtain the solar meter and temp gun for a while, due to the pandemic I cannot order these at this moment in time.When I do get the solar meter what should it read? Will he be in any pain or discomfort now and will he continue to grow normally? Thank you very much once again for taking the time to work through things with me to try and find the problem

 

[Tom]

Yes I will fix the uv straight away however I might not be able to obtain the solar meter and temp gun for a while, due to the pandemic I cannot order these at this moment in time.When I do get the solar meter what should it read? Will he be in any pain or discomfort now and will he continue to grow normally? Thank you very much once again for taking the time to work through things with me to try and find the problem

I think he's mostly done growing at this age and size.

For a UV tube that will be on all day, a UVI reading of 3-5 is good.

 

[Speedy101]

I think he's mostly done growing at this age and size.

For a UV tube that will be on all day, a UVI reading of 3-5 is good.

If he is mostly done growing,can he still continue to pyramid? I know that if I do everything right he shouldn’t continue to pyramid anyways but just curious?

 

[Yvonne G]

Please reread my two posts. Everything Tom said is true, but doesn't really apply to your situation. It applied when you first got the tortoise. You've been doing just fine with the tortoise. Keep up the good work!

 

[Speedy101]

Please reread my two posts. Everything Tom said is true, but doesn't really apply to your situation. It applied when you first got the tortoise. You've been doing just fine with the tortoise. Keep up the good work!

Thank you that’s reassuring!