Pyrimiding

[Tom]

Pyramiding is primally caused by low humidity where the shell is consistently too dry. The proper humidity is species dependent. Keep in mind that humans prefer much lower humidity than tortoises. For indoor enclosures balancing the proper humidity for tortoise and human habitats becomes and engineering challenge.

In nature, many tortoises expose themselves to high humidity by burrowing into moist substrates that are wet to the touch. A sulcata tortoise will borrow a tunnel that is many feet deep. They will alternate this by basking in the sun where fungus growth will be stopped. In North America, think of the Eastern Box Turtle that burrows into wet leaves during warm or hot days.

The challenge in cooler North American climates is keeping proper humidity for warm climate species during cold months. The heat needed to keep the animal warm also causes low humidity. This is the opposite thermodynamic effect of a typical tortoise burrow where outside warm humid air will increase in humidity as it cools entering the burrow.

So what to do when keeping the tortoise indoors? Setup a controlled environment with the proper heat and humidity. Heat can use lamps, heat mats, air heaters, building heat, or whatever is available and properly protected from burning the animal. Setup a temperature gradient during day lighting hours with a warm basking spot and a cooler hiding space. Humidity can be maintained with moist substrate, water containers large enough for bathing, and humidifiers. Small enclosures can use reptile humidifiers. Larger enclosures can consider household humidifiers. Still the most effective method is likely moist substrate of some type of combination of clean soil, clean leaves, hay, and straw. All the water will need constant replenishing as the heat dries it.

Other factors that contribute to pyramiding are diet and lighting, because these impact bone growth. The most common cause is low humidity. The enclosure in the photo is setup to be very dry.

Humidifiers should not be blowing directly into a tortoise enclosure. Its not good for them to be breathing those micro-droplets, and that is not the same thing as humidity.

Also, soil, leaves, hay and straw should never be used with tortoises, because in the proper damp humid environment, they will mold and will likely be eaten.

The solution is, quite simply, a closed chamber that will contain the warm moist air that is generated. The cold temps of winter have little effect in a closed chamber because the warm humid air is properly contained.

Give this a read through to catch yourself up to speed:

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The above info is for people new to the forum, not necessarily new to tortoise care. Your questions are welcome. Feel free to counter and ask questions. All of these assertions can be backed up with facts and extensive first hand experience.

 

[wellington]

Disregarding recent research and others experience is the dead end.

Nevertheless:
Here is Tom's post:
https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/curly-kale.13230/page-2#post-120108 - same as I said. Cause of pyramiding is drying of keratin, diet is a contributing factor.

Markw84:
https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/does-diet-contribute-to-pyramiding.153647/page-3#post-1511103 ("I do feel MBD will exacerbate the pyramiding as the bone remains much more pliable. But the scute growth causes the pyramiding.")

Lol
Read Toms post!

 

[wellington]

Disregarding recent research and others experience is the dead end.

Nevertheless:
Here is Tom's post:
https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/curly-kale.13230/page-2#post-120108 - same as I said. Cause of pyramiding is drying of keratin, diet is a contributing factor.

Markw84:
https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/does-diet-contribute-to-pyramiding.153647/page-3#post-1511103 ("I do feel MBD will exacerbate the pyramiding as the bone remains much more pliable. But the scute growth causes the pyramiding.")

Thanks for finding these and proving my point!

 

[Alex and the Redfoot]

Lol
Read Toms post!

Yep. What Tom says is not contradicting to what I say. And makes sense, "Lol" - doesn't.

 

[wellington]

Yep. What Tom says is not contradicting to what I say. And makes sense, "Lol" - doesn't.

Not sure what you aren't seeing, but whatever. Obviously you know more. Not!

 

[TammyJ]

Can I please play too?

 

[TammyJ]

Can I please play too?

Tammy, remember that old Jamaican saying: "Cockroach nah business inna fowl fight."

 

[jaizei]

There are papers with groups of tortoises in low humidity/high humidity environments and high starch/low starch diets. Pyramiding was prominent in all low-humidity environments and the most notable in low-humidity high-starch diet group.

Do you have the title/authors of the papers handy?

 

[Alex and the Redfoot]

It was a "Vienna paper" (my bad, I've confused high-starch and high-protein diets):
Wiesner, C., & Iben, C. (2003). Influence of environmental humidity and dietary protein on pyramidal growth of carapaces in African spurred tortoises (Geochelone sulcata). Journal of Animal Physiology and Animal Nutrition, 87(1–2), 66–74. doi:10.1046/j.1439-0396.2003.00411.x

I haven't seen more experiments like this (with different humidity settings vs other factors). Others have same humidity setting in main and control groups:
1. High-starch diet and redfoots. No effect on pyramiding. https://www.researchgate.net/public...ed_tortoise_hatchlings_Chelonoidis_carbonaria
2. Another well-known paper (low humidity settings, nighttime undertank heating has effect on pyramiding): "Heinrich, M. L., & Heinrich, K. K. (2016). Effect of supplemental heat in captive African leopard tortoises (Stigmochelys pardalis) and spurred tortoises (CENTROCHELYS sulcata) on growth rate and carapacial scute pyramiding. Journal of Exotic Pet Medicine, 25(1), 18–25." doi:10.1053/j.jepm.2015.12.005
3. Outdoor and indoor settings, different diets. Pyramiding wasn't observed in all three groups of hatchlings. "Body size development of captive and free-ranging Leopard tortoises (Geochelone pardalis). Julia Ritz et al. Zoo Biol. 2010 Jul-Aug". https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19722272/

Not a research, but has some good points and examples of pyramiding in wild Testudos. https://www.marginata.dk/Artikler/vaekst.htm

I would be glad to read more on topic if you have something.

 

[ecachuh]

I have not because I was unaware it was needed, I have heard mixed telling's about humidity. I appreciate your help!

There's a ton of misinformation out there and many you tubers dishing it out. The great thing about this forum, is the experts here have done their own personal research on the subject. They actually have proof to back up what they are saying. Not just repeating something they've read from the internet or somewhere else. They've all helped me tremendously with my 5 yr old rescued tortoise. I knew nothing before I joined this forum. So glad I found them!

Welcome!
** I'm in Louisiana too

 

[ecachuh]

There's a ton of misinformation out there and many you tubers dishing it out. The great thing about this forum, is the experts here have done their own personal research on the subject. They actually have proof to back up what they are saying. Not just repeating something they've read from the internet or somewhere else. They've all helped me tremendously with my 5 yr old rescued tortoise. I knew nothing before I joined this forum. So glad I found them!

Welcome!
** I'm in Louisiana too

Well.....sometimes the experts don't agree.

 

[jaizei]

It was a "Vienna paper" (my bad, I've confused high-starch and high-protein diets):
Wiesner, C., & Iben, C. (2003). Influence of environmental humidity and dietary protein on pyramidal growth of carapaces in African spurred tortoises (Geochelone sulcata). Journal of Animal Physiology and Animal Nutrition, 87(1–2), 66–74. doi:10.1046/j.1439-0396.2003.00411.x

I haven't seen more experiments like this (with different humidity settings vs other factors). Others have same humidity setting in main and control groups:
1. High-starch diet and redfoots. No effect on pyramiding. https://www.researchgate.net/public...ed_tortoise_hatchlings_Chelonoidis_carbonaria
2. Another well-known paper (low humidity settings, nighttime undertank heating has effect on pyramiding): "Heinrich, M. L., & Heinrich, K. K. (2016). Effect of supplemental heat in captive African leopard tortoises (Stigmochelys pardalis) and spurred tortoises (CENTROCHELYS sulcata) on growth rate and carapacial scute pyramiding. Journal of Exotic Pet Medicine, 25(1), 18–25." doi:10.1053/j.jepm.2015.12.005
3. Outdoor and indoor settings, different diets. Pyramiding wasn't observed in all three groups of hatchlings. "Body size development of captive and free-ranging Leopard tortoises (Geochelone pardalis). Julia Ritz et al. Zoo Biol. 2010 Jul-Aug". https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19722272/

Not a research, but has some good points and examples of pyramiding in wild Testudos. https://www.marginata.dk/Artikler/vaekst.htm

I would be glad to read more on topic if you have something.

When you mentioned starch, my first thought was the one with redfoots. I need to reread the Heinrich 2016, but I think it may have failed to control for amount of growth. There's a picture from it that shows a drastic size difference between no heat/heat, and that is similar to the results seen from low/high protein. Little/no growth will typically be less pyramided than more growth.

 

[jaizei]

There's a ton of misinformation out there and many you tubers dishing it out. The great thing about this forum, is the experts here have done their own personal research on the subject. They actually have proof to back up what they are saying. Not just repeating something they've read from the internet or somewhere else.

The problem is twofold: the notion of experts, and those that just parrot what the experts say with little scrutiny. It's almost like the most important lesson that should have learned from listening to the experts of yesteryear wasn't learned.

The more familiarity and understanding of a topic that you have, the more you realize how often the experts actually are just repeating things, which may be right or wrong.

 

[Alex and the Redfoot]

When you mentioned starch, my first thought was the one with redfoots. I need to reread the Heinrich 2016, but I think it may have failed to control for amount of growth. There's a picture from it that shows a drastic size difference between no heat/heat, and that is similar to the results seen from low/high protein. Little/no growth will typically be less pyramided than more growth.

In Heinrich paper they didn't control food intake specifically. However, diet doesn't look very disbalanced - free outside foraging, grocery greens and some frozen produce. If we compare "no heat" group at the end of the experiment with the "heat" group in the middle of the experiment (same weight/size) - pyramiding is more prominent in the "heat" group. Perhaps, metabolic rate has some impact in low humidity conditions.

 

[ecachuh]

The problem is twofold: the notion of experts, and those that just parrot what the experts say with little scrutiny. It's almost like the most important lesson that should have learned from listening to the experts of yesteryear wasn't learned.

The more familiarity and understanding of a topic that you have, the more you realize how often the experts actually are just repeating things, which may be right or wrong.

That is an excellent point.

 

[ecachuh]

The problem is twofold: the notion of experts, and those that just parrot what the experts say with little scrutiny. It's almost like the most important lesson that should have learned from listening to the experts of yesteryear wasn't learned.

The more familiarity and understanding of a topic that you have, the more you realize how often the experts actually are just repeating things, which may be right or wrong.

We do have members that have done research and experimented with it as well. I am referring to those experts. The ones with positive outcomes.