Red foot stopped eating

[mark1]

a smaller container , imo, is a good idea for an ill reptile ,not because they get lost , but because they may not thermoregulate properly..... a small container can be kept entirely at the same temperature.....

red foots habitat is not deep shaded forest .... thick forest are actually a genetic barrier to redfoot tortoises , there are 4-5 genetically distinct clades of redfoots , not the case with yellowfoot tortoises........ i kept redfoots outside in ohio end of may through end of september , easily for 10 plus years, they "bask" as much as my eastern box turtle do...... just provide cover , they do like to bask under cover ........

"They live in savannahs to forest-edges, forest clearings, or along waterways. They appreciate habitats with temperatures close to 30 °C. Red-footed tortoises are often found in or near transitional areas between forests (rain forests, dry forests or even temperate forests) and savannah, such as forest clearings, wood edges, or along waterways (Moskovits, 1985)."

 

[Tom]

Well first off to say this concept is absurd is to discredit several keepers who I have much respect for and trust more then you tom. Second, to say red foots don't need a basking area is absurd and besides that the temps are spot on so its not like hes cooking. They are not a forest species. They are a savanna species. His uvb is a 5.0 and that is what is recommended for his species. I do not use a humidifier in his new set up. I simply spray it. In is old set up I did and it was on a timer to go off in the morning and evening. It was cleaned every time the bottle ran out as well. He is on. A mix of coconut chips, reptisoil, coco coir, sphagnum moss, and organic top soil. He is fed on a large terracotta dish.

I saw your apology message, but your points and questions deserve a response to eliminate confusion for anyone reading.

Discrediting long term keepers who are dispensing bad advice ad doing things the old ways when I now know better is something I've been doing a long time. For some of those people it is a matter of pride and they don't like me. Others listen to what I'm saying and why I'm saying it, and they learn and do better than they used to do. This is human nature.

Redfoots do NOT need a basking area. Can they survive if you give them one one? Of course they can. Many people do. I think its a mistake based on the ones I've seen with a basking lamp and the ones without. We can debate what they do in the wild all day. I won't argue one way or the other. But I've seen what I've seen with captive RFs, and I stand by my original statement. They do not need a basking lamp.

Tortoises should not be on soil. We argued this many times here. There is no way to know what is in that soil and it could be something toxic or dangerous. I and many others have found both toxic and dangerous items in bought-in-a-bag soil.

Moss will be eaten and it can cause impaction. Do some people use it and recommend it? Sure they do. I don't. I've seen what it can do. Some people have to learn the hard way.

Humidifiers should not be blowing directly into tortoise enclosures. Its not good for them to be breathing those micro-droplets, and this is different from humidity. Humidity is good. Foggy wet air is not.

And it is ran for 12 hours and that will not change. Because that is natural, the sun is out for twelve hours. He is not stuck under it all day there is plenty of places to go away from the bulb. the uvb is completely within the uv index that is safe for red foots. So spare me your high horse bullshit I didn't just jump into caring for these animals I have done my damn research.

Do you have a UV meter? Go outside and tell me what the UVI is at daybreak or sunset. Tell me what time of day it is before you get a UVI of 1. There is NOT high levels of UV for 12 hours a day anywhere in the world during any season. This is completely unnatural. Daylight for 12 hours? Yes. UV no. Light should be provided by LEDs on timers. UV should be on a separate timer for a shorter duration. DO people use UV tube for 12 hours a day? Sure they do. I don't agree with the practice because that is not what is happening outside, and years of doing it my way instead of that way has served me and my tortoises well.

I don't have high horse bullshit. What I have is decades of experience raising tortoises many different ways, and studying what everyone else does too. I've been doing side-by-side experiments to determine what works best and why since 2008. I don't know everything, but I do know some things. I used to follow that same old wrong advice that you have been given. I've learned better ways, and I enjoy sharing what I have learned with others in an effort to help other people take better care of their tortoises and avoid common problems that happen as a result of those old wrong ways.

So stop questioning my husbandry when I have tortoises that are completely fine and happy besides this imparticular one.

You came here asking for help and advice. That is what I was trying to do. You clearly have a problem, and the questions were intended to help discover and correct the problem. If you didn't want help, why did you ask for it? I can't understand why you took any of that post as a personal attack or insult. I don't know everything. Do you think you do?

The folks over at Garden State Tortoise raise there red foot tortoise hatchlings in the exact same set up I have Magnus in right now and clearly they are extremely successful. I use flood lights for basking just like the people on this forum have told me to do I do not use spot bulbs that drain the life out of tortoises. Now that will be the end of this discussion. Thanks all who ACTUALLY gave advice to help.

There is no one, including me, that knows everything. Chris is a good guy and knows a lot. He doesn't know everything, and he's had problems just like everyone else. No two people agree on every aspect of tortoise care. I was using my personal experience to try to help you solve your problem. Your reaction was surprising and certainly uncalled for, but I don't take these things personally. You can't discern tone from the written word, but my tone in post number 17 was one of helpfulness. No insult or offense was intended, and still isn't.

 

[Honeyman]

@Tom Your points a completely valid and I am sincerely sorry for the way I reacted. It was completely immature and uncalled for. I understand that by behaving in that way I may lose valuable information that you are trying to give me to help my animals have a better life. I will remove all of his subrate today and exclude the moss and top soil. I will also get rid of the baking light and switch the uvb cycle. What would be your recommendation for uvb time? I no longer use the humidifier I simply spray in the morning and about 2 hours before the lights turn off. Again I am sorry about the way I talked to you. If you are still willing to help I would gladly take your advice

 

[Maggie3fan]

So the three time limit actually wasn't on this forum. I looked through some saved pages and it was on a page called theturtleladyca.com. I understand it isn't a cure for any illness but I'm doing it in hopes the tortoise gets some nutrients. It seems to be working .

The theory is that the nutrients soak in the cloaca, and that the tort generally does take a drink...The baby food carrots are loaded with Vitamin A. At any rate...it can't hurt...

 

[Tom]

@Tom Your points a completely valid and I am sincerely sorry for the way I reacted. It was completely immature and uncalled for. I understand that by behaving in that way I may lose valuable information that you are trying to give me to help my animals have a better life. I will remove all of his subrate today and exclude the moss and top soil. I will also get rid of the baking light and switch the uvb cycle. What would be your recommendation for uvb time? I no longer use the humidifier I simply spray in the morning and about 2 hours before the lights turn off. Again I am sorry about the way I talked to you. If you are still willing to help I would gladly take your advice

Apology accepted. Let's move one and get back to understanding your issue and solving whatever the problem is.

Here are some possibilities to throw out there and eliminate. What would make a 200 gram, well started baby stop, or greatly reduce, eating?
1. Wrong temperatures? That doesn't seem likely in your case.
2. Wrong lighting? I would do a few things a little differently, but I doubt this is your issue.
3. Intestinal impaction? He could be blocked up from the moss, though it sounds like things might be improving as this thread moved along.
4. Long term malnutrition? No. You've done a first class job with the food it sounds like. Your supplement routine sounds spot on too.
5. Something poisonous or dangerous in the bought-in-a-bag soil? This is possible, but really not likely. I recommend not using soil, but many people use it anyway and don't run into a problem. An x-ray would eliminate intestinal obstruction by something radio dense. You'd have to do blood work for potential poisoning.
6. Disease? There are a lot of terrible tortoise diseases circulating around right now. Many of these disease can have asymptomatic carriers, and are very difficult to diagnose. Have you observed strict quarantine and bio-security with new tortoises coming in? I sure hope it is not this.

 

[Honeyman]

Apology accepted. Let's move one and get back to understanding your issue and solving whatever the problem is.

Here are some possibilities to throw out there and eliminate. What would make a 200 gram, well started baby stop, or greatly reduce, eating?
1. Wrong temperatures? That doesn't seem likely in your case.
2. Wrong lighting? I would do a few things a little differently, but I doubt this is your issue.
3. Intestinal impaction? He could be blocked up from the moss, though it sounds like things might be improving as this thread moved along.
4. Long term malnutrition? No. You've done a first class job with the food it sounds like. Your supplement routine sounds spot on too.
5. Something poisonous or dangerous in the bought-in-a-bag soil? This is possible, but really not likely. I recommend not using soil, but many people use it anyway and don't run into a problem. An x-ray would eliminate intestinal obstruction by something radio dense. You'd have to do blood work for potential poisoning.
6. Disease? There are a lot of terrible tortoise diseases circulating around right now. Many of these disease can have asymptomatic carriers, and are very difficult to diagnose. Have you observed strict quarantine and bio-security with new tortoises coming in? I sure hope it is not this.

 

[Honeyman]

He has never been in contact with another tortoise under my care, there was a cherryhead living in his enclosure before him but I've since sold that tortoise and I made sure to clean the enclosure and decor before introducing Magnus. I did get another redfoot hatchling not too long ago to eventually start a group but she is in a strict 6 month quarantine in its own enclosure. With that being said they are in the same room, I don't know if there is any airborne illness that they can spread so Hopefully that's not it. I do make sure to wash my hands everytime I handle one of my tortoises so I don't spread anything going from one enclosure to another. I was wondering if one of the feeder insects I fed passed some parasite to the tortoise. Do you think this could be a possibility? I also wanted to say that Magnus had made some improvement,he has ate half of his food dish two days in a row now which gives me hope.

 

[Tom]

He has never been in contact with another tortoise under my care, there was a cherryhead living in his enclosure before him but I've since sold that tortoise and I made sure to clean the enclosure and decor before introducing Magnus. I did get another redfoot hatchling not too long ago to eventually start a group but she is in a strict 6 month quarantine in its own enclosure. With that being said they are in the same room, I don't know if there is any airborne illness that they can spread so Hopefully that's not it. I do make sure to wash my hands everytime I handle one of my tortoises so I don't spread anything going from one enclosure to another. I was wondering if one of the feeder insects I fed passed some parasite to the tortoise. Do you think this could be a possibility? I also wanted to say that Magnus had made some improvement,he has ate half of his food dish two days in a row now which gives me hope.

Parasites from captive bred feeders is not something I see or hear about ever. Certainly not impossible, but definitely improbable.

This is a case where some vet help might be needed. X-ray, fecal exam and bloodwork may reveal a clue. Your care and feeding are excellent, and like ZP, I really don't see an issue there, so time to look elsewhere.

 

[Honeyman]

Parasites from captive bred feeders is not something I see or hear about ever. Certainly not impossible, but definitely improbable.

This is a case where some vet help might be needed. X-ray, fecal exam and bloodwork may reveal a clue. Your care and feeding are excellent, and like ZP, I really don't see an issue there, so time to look elsewhere.

I have him an appointment for this coming Friday. Hopefully we can get to the bottom of this. I will share what the vet finds as well as consult you all before they offer some sort of medication. I must admit I am quite nervous about exotic vets. About 2 years ago I bought a farmed cherry head. This tortoise didnt seem healthy one bit once i received it. I took him to one vet and spent 250$ just for the appointment and and another 200$ for fecals they told me he was completely fine after they did there check up and fecal sample. I knew this wasn't right and took him to another tortoise vet 3 hours away( I live in a very rural area) and these guys did bloodwork, fecal samples, x rays and a CT scan and that came out to over 2,000$. They did find he had parasites and a slightly raised wbc. They prescribed 2 oral medications and one intermuscular.The part that doesnt sit right with me is they told me they gave this tortoise that was only 600 grams 3 times the dose of anesthesia they generally need for a tortoise that size and before the even put him under they warned me that it can be dangerous putting them on anesthesia. It took my tortoise nearly 9 hours to wake up so they would let me take him home. I am no vet and i will never claim to be and maybe what they did was fine, but that seems very dangerous to me. Does this vet seem competent to you guys or should I find someone else? Thanks as always

 

[Tom]

I have him an appointment for this coming Friday. Hopefully we can get to the bottom of this. I will share what the vet finds as well as consult you all before they offer some sort of medication. I must admit I am quite nervous about exotic vets. About 2 years ago I bought a farmed cherry head. This tortoise didnt seem healthy one bit once i received it. I took him to one vet and spent 250$ just for the appointment and and another 200$ for fecals they told me he was completely fine after they did there check up and fecal sample. I knew this wasn't right and took him to another tortoise vet 3 hours away( I live in a very rural area) and these guys did bloodwork, fecal samples, x rays and a CT scan and that came out to over 2,000$. They did find he had parasites and a slightly raised wbc. They prescribed 2 oral medications and one intermuscular.The part that doesnt sit right with me is they told me they gave this tortoise that was only 600 grams 3 times the dose of anesthesia they generally need for a tortoise that size and before the even put him under they warned me that it can be dangerous putting them on anesthesia. It took my tortoise nearly 9 hours to wake up so they would let me take him home. I am no vet and i will never claim to be and maybe what they did was fine, but that seems very dangerous to me. Does this vet seem competent to you guys or should I find someone else? Thanks as always

There really isn't a fair way for us to judge the competency of these two vets based on what you've told us. It doesn't sound good from your description, but I'd want to hear their side of the story before condemning them. I will say that $250 for an office visit and $200 for a fecal is exorbitant, and a good way to make people not want to go to a vet. Office visits fees should be no more than around $50-75, and a fecal shouldn't be more than $50. Prices are going up everywhere though, and vets have bills to pay too.

I wouldn't have okayed the CT scan at the other vet. Anesthesia with exotic reptiles is a very tricky and difficult thing. It is truly an art form learned through time with a lot of trial and error. Not all vets are good at it. Some are bad at it. 9 hours to wake up does sound excessive. $2000 for basic diagnostics sounds pretty high to me. I would look for a better deal if possible.

Whether or not to go to a vet is often a judgement call. I certainly understand your reluctance given what you've seen personally, and what I've seen over the decades too. The tortoise is improving, so maybe double check your parameters and wait it out. Keep the soaks going in case there was/is any sort of blockage from the moss or from something in the soil that you used. They often heal themselves and problems go away on their own. On the other hand, some problems don't fix themselves and waiting makes it worse, so you'll have to consider what is the best course of action for your situation and live with the consequences of your decision.

If you do decide to go to the vet, I'd call ahead and ask prices for things like bloodwork and an x-ray. Have a plan for what you think is acceptable and refuse extra things that you don't think are necessary. Some vets will be annoyed with this sort of thing. Other vets will understand that you aren't made of money and you've been taken for a ride by previous vets. It really depends on the individual and also how you approach it. What I will say it this: When you find a good vet with reasonable prices, recommend them to everyone you know. Help them build their practice and be successful. Reward them with business for doing good work and not gouging everyone that walks in the door.

 

[dd33]

About 2 years ago I bought a farmed cherry head. This tortoise didnt seem healthy one bit once i received it.

What wound up happening with this tortoise?

 

[Honeyman]

What wound up happening with this tortoise?

He ended being just fine after a few months and I sold him to a very close friend who still has him today.

 

[Honeyman]

There really isn't a fair way for us to judge the competency of these two vets based on what you've told us. It doesn't sound good from your description, but I'd want to hear their side of the story before condemning them. I will say that $250 for an office visit and $200 for a fecal is exorbitant, and a good way to make people not want to go to a vet. Office visits fees should be no more than around $50-75, and a fecal shouldn't be more than $50. Prices are going up everywhere though, and vets have bills to pay too.

I wouldn't have okayed the CT scan at the other vet. Anesthesia with exotic reptiles is a very tricky and difficult thing. It is truly an art form learned through time with a lot of trial and error. Not all vets are good at it. Some are bad at it. 9 hours to wake up does sound excessive. $2000 for basic diagnostics sounds pretty high to me. I would look for a better deal if possible.

Whether or not to go to a vet is often a judgement call. I certainly understand your reluctance given what you've seen personally, and what I've seen over the decades too. The tortoise is improving, so maybe double check your parameters and wait it out. Keep the soaks going in case there was/is any sort of blockage from the moss or from something in the soil that you used. They often heal themselves and problems go away on their own. On the other hand, some problems don't fix themselves and waiting makes it worse, so you'll have to consider what is the best course of action for your situation and live with the consequences of your decision.

If you do decide to go to the vet, I'd call ahead and ask prices for things like bloodwork and an x-ray. Have a plan for what you think is acceptable and refuse extra things that you don't think are necessary. Some vets will be annoyed with this sort of thing. Other vets will understand that you aren't made of money and you've been taken for a ride by previous vets. It really depends on the individual and also how you approach it. What I will say it this: When you find a good vet with reasonable prices, recommend them to everyone you know. Help them build their practice and be successful. Reward them with business for doing good work and not gouging everyone that walks in the door.

I will definitely take your advice on this matter. I will also let you all know how this vet ends up being so I can help anyone else in my area. Thank you guys so much for all the help and being so kind. It really helps in these stressful situations!