Should this animal be euthanized?

[Mgridgaway]

If they're not in immense pain than I think they deserve a shot at life. We offer the same dignity to humans with physical disabilities... I don't see why we can't extend that to animals as well.

 

[Raymo2477]

A pet store near me, Capt. Nemo's, in Norristown, Pa, has a two headed slider. I t is a freakshow style attraction for them and kids line up to see it. It always looks sad to me

That being said it eats and is growing so I would always say let it live and the one in the ad.

I think selling a oddity like this is wrong and the breeder should just try to get it to a suitable long term home...I'm sure a zoo or nature center would love an animal like this and be able to properly care for it.

 

[Terry Allan Hall]

Should Abby and Betty? I say give all a chance.

Comparing human teenagers to a hatchling turtle is apples and oranges. The fact is that with humans the legal aspect comes in to play, where with other animals it isn't a factor. Once these twins were born, it would have been illegal to euthanize them.

Also, in the human equation is the fact that a prenatal diagnosis of conjoined twins can be discovered as early as 6 to 7 weeks, at which point many of these pregnancies are terminated. Not to make this an abortion debate, but from a certain perspective, many human conjoined twins are euthanized in the sense that the 'lives' are terminated prior to birth. Although I couldn't terminate the life of human conjoined twins already born, I probably would terminate the pregnancy of conjoined twinsif I knew they would not be able to be separated with surgery.

The fact is that nature has a way of naturally dealing with these types of deformities in the wild. The lack of mobility makes these animals easy prey or unable to hunt. In those species where the parents care for the offspring, many of them (rodents for example) will kill and/or eat those young that are deformed. In other cases, animals in the cervidae family (deer, antelope, gazelle), if the young are unable to stand and walk upon birth due to deformity, they're left to die (usually by falling prey).

We're mostly in agreement, other than equating a human life as being more valuable than another being's life.

All life is equally precious.

 

[dmmj]

well I am all for quality of life being the deciding factor, but I can't compare a human's right to choose over an animal's.

 

[TylerStewart]

Do we really think that there's a breeder out there that has a trick up their sleeve to produce two headed turtles? Are they really breeding specifically for this? Answer is, no they're not. It's something that happens occasionally when something is produced by the millions like red ear sliders are. There's not a pond full of two headed adults somewhere in Louisiana cranking out two headed babies. It's not done intentionally. That's not to say that a breeder isn't going to jump on the opportunity to capitalize on it, though. If any of you hatched something like this that you knew was worth potentially thousands of dollars, would you automatically put it down? I doubt it. Even people that think it should be put down would probably slip it out the back door for someone else to resell publicly.

We're mostly in agreement, other than equating a human life as being more valuable than another being's life.

All life is equally precious.

False..... This is silly. Of course a human life is more valuable than an animal life, from any angle you want to look at it. What's sad is that this idea keeps popping up that an animal life is more or equally as important as a human one.

 

[EricIvins]

Unfortunately these animals are often times bred this way purposely for the money, just as 2 headeds are, and other morphs, sold for substantial amounts.. And there is a market for it, I've seen this turtle on faunaclassifieds, going for 3800, its crazy.. I personally would not want to own this type of morph, even if I had all the money in the world.. This turtle does not need to put down, justs needs lots of extra TLC, he needs a special setup for his mobilization, he needs special feedings daily, etc... regardless he wont live very long.. Hopefully someone will him/them the best quality of life possible

That's not true at all.........

These mutations pop up in many Turtle Farms because of the number of animals produced.......Nobody is purposely breeding twins or any of these mutations because of the simple fact that they don't need to.......The Farms do all the work needed........

Another FYI - There are more Siamese Twin Turtless that are mature than you would think........I know of one collector that has over 10 that he raised from hatchlings.......

 

[dmmj]

regarding breeding I do know of a online site that purposely breeds (or tries to at least) one eye RES and then tries to sell them for like 1000. I honestly don't know how successful they are in selling them. The blindness is some sort of genetic thing with this particular RES.

 

[Neltharion]

regarding breeding I do know of a online site that purposely breeds (or tries to at least) one eye RES and then tries to sell them for like 1000. I honestly don't know how successful they are in selling them. The blindness is some sort of genetic thing with this particular RES.

I noticed that too. The same site also sells two headed RES for $3800 and two headed yellow bellied for $1700.

Then there is another site selling two faced sliders, two headed sliders, two headed yellow bellied, and shell-less sliders, from $800 on up to $1400.

Seeing this on sale, was a bit disturbing.

 

[Yvonne G]

Now, see...In my opinion, THAT one doesn't have much of a chance at life. Seems to me one of them (probably the weaker one) will probably drown because the stronger one will be up breathing.

 

[Neltharion]

That's not to say that a breeder isn't going to jump on the opportunity to capitalize on it, though. If any of you hatched something like this that you knew was worth potentially thousands of dollars, would you automatically put it down? I doubt it. Even people that think it should be put down would probably slip it out the back door for someone else to resell publicly.

That simply is not true. The dollar is not the bottom line for everyone that breeds. The fact is that most of us that breed on a very small scale are lucky to break even, and are likely losing money. I would not be breeding if money was the main motivating factor.

Before tortoises, I was keeping and breeding pythons and constrictors. Part of my interest in bicephaly is that I had a siamese jungle carpet python hatch. A friend of mine is a local store owner, he offered me a fairly substantial amount. He was going to put it on display in his store. I don't know how much of the snake's erratic movement was because both heads were trying to control the body, or if was also in part to stargazing. The snake's heads were frequently pointed upward. In my mind, the humane thing to do was to cull the snake. I would imagine that there would be others that would do the same thing.

 

[TylerStewart]

That simply is not true. The dollar is not the bottom line for everyone that breeds.

Which is why I said "I doubt it" instead of "no" and "probably" shortly after. Being into breeding for the fun of it (which I think everyone that breeds in this forum is) doesn't mean that someone isn't going to jump at the opportunity to make money. Some people would put down an animal. Most people wouldn't, and haven't in the past. I think a huge majority of the deformed baby turtles and torts don't live beyond a month, and those that do mostly end up in the market. I'm not saying I'm all for it, I'm just saying what I think is fact. I've had random baby tortoises hatch without eyes. Not sure what I would have done with them, they never lived beyond a month. I think the last thing I would have done is put them up for sale like I was proud of it.

I'd be surprised if the "eyeless" thing was something that could be produced by breeding two eyeless adults (assuming you could even get two eyeless water turtles to find each other and breed).... They probably claim it is (not sure why you would), but look who we're dealing with LOL.

 

[mytwotortys]

Do we really think that there's a breeder out there that has a trick up their sleeve to produce two headed turtles? Are they really breeding specifically for this? Answer is, no they're not. It's something that happens occasionally when something is produced by the millions like red ear sliders are. There's not a pond full of two headed adults somewhere in Louisiana cranking out two headed babies. It's not done intentionally. That's not to say that a breeder isn't going to jump on the opportunity to capitalize on it, though. If any of you hatched something like this that you knew was worth potentially thousands of dollars, would you automatically put it down? I doubt it. Even people that think it should be put down would probably slip it out the back door for someone else to resell publicly.

False..... This is silly. Of course a human life is more valuable than an animal life, from any angle you want to look at it. What's sad is that this idea keeps popping up that an animal life is more or equally as important as a human one.

WHAT?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?! ALL LIFE IS PRECIOUS!!!!!!!!! HUMANS ARE ANIMALS TOO, WE EVOLVED FROM APES, THE ONLY DIFFERENCE IS WE HAVE MORE DEVELOPED BRAINS!!!!!!!!!!! IF YOU THINK THAT ANIMAL LIVES ARE LESS VALUABLE THAN HUMAN LIVES WHEN COMPARED, THEN GET THE **** OUT OF MY VIEW BECAUSE PEOPLE LIKE YOU DON'T KNOW VALUE WHEN YOU SEE IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Yvonne G]

Do you swat a fly? step on a cockroach? spray ants?

 

[mytwotortys]

If it's not in pain, let it live, that's my motto. Why should it die if it's perfectly healthy apart from extra head? You wouldn't kill a conjoined human, so why kill this? It's sad that people think humans are of more value than animals, if there were no animals on the planet, would we have meat for our diet? Milk for our children? We all run out of natural human milk at some point, then what do we do? Would we have wool for our sweaters? Fleece is alright, but what if we run out? When global warming becomes a major major problem, we may have to use animals for energy reasons. Excretement, belches, running power and transport are jobs that few humans would want to do. Animals help us more than you think. We take them for granted. We sell them for money to live, we do that with crops too, but what provides us with the fertiliser to grow them? Animals. We would be extinct without animals. There are some people who clearly don't appreciate them at all. Let the turtle live. It may one day save our lives.

---

Do you swat a fly? step on a cockroach? spray ants?

I thought you were nice, emysemys. Clearly not. And, FYI, I don't swat flies, I open windows to let them out. I don't get cockroaches, I live in England, but if I did, I would get it in a glass and set it free. I don't like ants, but I don't kill them. I love all living things, and always try my hardest not to kill them, even if they are insects, don't underestimate a 12 year old.

 

[Talka]

On a cosmic scale, all life is equally precious, since there's so little life (that we know of) in this entire Universe.
However, as far as society is concerned, there is a scale of which animals are more important than others. Bugs rank last, I kill any bug I see inside my house.
Reptiles I consider important. Birds and fish get a pass, unless they're dinner.
Plants... plants I consider almost as important as pets. Having studied some biology, I really appreciate their complexity. I would never toss out a living plant. That's as bad to me as kicking a puppy.

There used to be an old Asian religion, I believe in China over 2,000 years ago, that believed that all life was equally precious, to the point that killing even tiny ants, or the leaves on a plant, was a sin. From what I hear, the religion's leaders starved to death to avoid harming nature.
So um... that religion didn't last very long!

As for the topic, if the turtle(s) can get by just fine in a habitat, I say let 'em live. If I sold a conjoined tort, I'd sell it for double! It *is* two torts, after all!

 

[jackrat]

I'm currently working on an eight legged redfoot project. I plan on calling them "spider reds".

 

[Terry Allan Hall]

We're mostly in agreement, other than equating a human life as being more valuable than another being's life.

All life is equally precious.

False..... This is silly. Of course a human life is more valuable than an animal life, from any angle you want to look at it. What's sad is that this idea keeps popping up that an animal life is more or equally as important as a human one.
[/quote]

May I, with all due respect, point out that you speak from a Judeo-Christian's "conceit/perspective"...not everyone shares that "disability", though.

Many faiths realize that we humans are no more or less valuable to the actual world than any other living being.

---

Do you swat a fly? step on a cockroach? spray ants?

No, I allow/encourage geckos and toads to eat their natural prey.

---

On a cosmic scale, all life is equally precious, since there's so little life (that we know of) in this entire Universe.
However, as far as society is concerned, there is a scale of which animals are more important than others. Bugs rank last, I kill any bug I see inside my house.
Reptiles I consider important. Birds and fish get a pass, unless they're dinner.
Plants... plants I consider almost as important as pets. Having studied some biology, I really appreciate their complexity. I would never toss out a living plant. That's as bad to me as kicking a puppy.

There used to be an old Asian religion, I believe in China over 2,000 years ago, that believed that all life was equally precious, to the point that killing even tiny ants, or the leaves on a plant, was a sin. From what I hear, the religion's leaders starved to death to avoid harming nature.
So um... that religion didn't last very long!

As for the topic, if the turtle(s) can get by just fine in a habitat, I say let 'em live. If I sold a conjoined tort, I'd sell it for double! It *is* two torts, after all!

Actually, there are quite a few Buddhists to this day, and many believe in harming nothig animate.

 

[jaizei]

On a cosmic scale, all life is equally precious, since there's so little life (that we know of) in this entire Universe.
However, as far as society is concerned, there is a scale of which animals are more important than others. Bugs rank last, I kill any bug I see inside my house.
Reptiles I consider important. Birds and fish get a pass, unless they're dinner.
Plants... plants I consider almost as important as pets. Having studied some biology, I really appreciate their complexity. I would never toss out a living plant. That's as bad to me as kicking a puppy.

There used to be an old Asian religion, I believe in China over 2,000 years ago, that believed that all life was equally precious, to the point that killing even tiny ants, or the leaves on a plant, was a sin. From what I hear, the religion's leaders starved to death to avoid harming nature.
So um... that religion didn't last very long!

As for the topic, if the turtle(s) can get by just fine in a habitat, I say let 'em live. If I sold a conjoined tort, I'd sell it for double! It *is* two torts, after all!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jainism

 

[Neltharion]

If it's not in pain, let it live, that's my motto. Why should it die if it's perfectly healthy apart from extra head? You wouldn't kill a conjoined human, so why kill this? It's sad that people think humans are of more value than animals, if there were no animals on the planet, would we have meat for our diet? Milk for our children?

The question becomes, is it in pain or otherwise suffering a diminished quality of life. And from the statement, "Why should it die if it's perfectly healthy. . . ." is the entire point. If you've observed a two headed animal and the erratic, spastic movements that it makes while both heads struggle for control; is that healthy? Is it really pain free? Is it suffering from a diminished quality of life?

As for the human argument. Again, its not legal to kill a conjoined human. But the reality of it is that conjoined twins can be determined in prenatal care. Pregnancies of conjoined twins are oftentimes terminated. Part of the reason why a country as populated as the U.S., sees such a low incidence of conjoined twins relative to less populated countries that show higher rates (usually because abortion isn't legal in those countries and/or the medical technology just isn't advanced enough there). The fact is that as humans, we do make the choice to terminate the lives of conjoined human twins. A choice is made to not give birth to them.

It seems oftentimes that many people do not temper the value that they place on all life with the quality of life itself.

Its for that very reason that I have a No Heroic Measures clause in my living will. I've seen brain damaged people kept alive on feeding tubes and respirators that would otherwise die if disconnected. Their family members would rather keep them alive in that state rather than let them pass, because they value life but fail to temper that with quality of life. Honestly, I'm not sure my family members would make the choice to remove me from artificial life support in those types of situations, so I made the choice for myself.

 

[TylerStewart]

May I, with all due respect, point out that you speak from a Judeo-Christian's "conceit/perspective"...not everyone shares that "disability", though.

Many faiths realize that we humans are no more or less valuable to the actual world than any other living being.

Not sure why this has anything to do with religion, but any person on earth and every government on earth is going to react differently to a person being shot and an ant being stepped on. I'm sorry you'd rather save the ant; that's your choice, but that doesn't make it okay.