soft tumor in tortoise's leg

[martaemha]

Yesterday while giving my 30+ year old steppe tortoise a bath I've noticed a swelling in her back leg. Upon closer examination I found what appears to be roundish/oval tumor. It is rather soft, no hard masses. It does not affect her walking, climbing and she has a great appetite.

Today the vet punctured the skin with a syringe and when it gathered some watery blood, he proceeded to squeeze the transparent/bloody liquid. He made a microscopic slide and tomorrow I will know what he has found.
I am in Poland and don't really trust vets here as I have encountered literally few good herpetologists. What do you think about the actions that the vet has undertaken today? I've heard of abscesses being very popular in tortoises but the doctor said that the if it were an abscess there would be puss coming out of it and there was only little blood and transparent liquid.

 

[Yvonne G]

I'm not a doctor, but my experience with abscesses is that they are more or less contained in a mass. The ones I've experienced are usually a little on the hard side and there is no bloody serum in them, more like cottage cheese.

I don't know what it is on your tortoise's leg, but I don't think it's an abscess. Trust your vet. It sounds like he's doing his best.

Welcome to the forum, Marta! We have a few members in Poland, but they don't post very much. It will be interesting to read about your tortoise and how you care for him there in your climate.

 

[Pearly]

Welcome to TFO, Marta! I'm so happy you found us. I am from Poland but have been in the US most of my adult life so have no feedback on herp vet care issues there but I do have medical background (in humans) and think that the needle aspiration biopsy was a valid option for diagnostics. Microscopic exam will reveal the type of cells in the fluid. If the "tumor" is located near a joint, it maybe synovial fluid collection which can be treated by aspiration and antiinflammatories. If it's not related to joint issues, it could be some type of a cyst. If the animal is eating and active as usual, it should be perfectly safe to wait few days for micro report. The vet may also do some imaging studies, xray probably being the simplest/least expensive to see correlation to anatomical structures. Could you post pictures?

 

[martaemha]

Thank you very much Yvonne!
After squeezing, the as-yet-unidentified mass has shrink a little. When I touch my tortoise's leg it is not as big as it was. I am suspecting that the blood and plasma might have gathered in this location due to my tortoise's strange habits. She lives with another female friend in her enclosure and is always trying to be the one who gets the best place, which is closest to the basking lamp. This basically means that she climbs her friend and stays on her carapace for hours, all legs stretched, very relaxed. But I guess that the carapace pressing on the rear legs in this position might have caused some tightness or pressure on the soft tissues. I have been advised to soak this area in camomile, so she is having her little tortoise spa right now. Afterwards I am going to apply some arnica flower topical to this area.

I don't know if this thread is a right place to write about husbandry of my tortoises but I'll try to say a few words at least. The are the kind of survivor tortoises that have been smuggled to Poland by the Russians at the beginning of the 90's (in terrible conditions as you can imagine). Before I got the one who's having this strange cyst right now, she had different owners who fed her horrible stuff like beef, pasta, rice, white cheese, generally everything you shouldn't feed a tortoise. So obviously she had terrible mbd which has left her lower beak growing incorrectly. Since I got her, she has been spending every summer (about 4 months) in an outdoor pen. I made some attempts of hibernating her, but the vet said that with tortoises that have a history of a very bad diet this is not the best idea. So I gave up. She is very active during the winter months, I have a greenhouse for growing her favorite dandelions all year round. The second tortoise is probably around 60. She is huge for a steppe tortoise and her carapace shows perfect growth so vets suspect that she might have lived in the wild for a long time in Poland (somebody who found her wandering on the meadow gave her to me knowing I am crazy over tortoises and already have one). She hibernates over the winter months.

Pearly, thank you so much for answering! Nice to hear that you have a polish background. Actually I suggested taking X-rays but the doctor said they probably won't show anything as the tumor is situated in the soft tissues. I really don't know but I too was thinking that this might be a good diagnostic tool. Tomorrow I will have the results of the biopsy. I will post some pictures too, because today I would like her to rest - it's already late here and the whole procedure must have been very stressful for her. And the problem is, this "thing" is not really visible unless you squeeze the back of the leg like, really really hard. It is obvious only when you touch it with your hands, otherwise the area just looks a little swollen.

 

[Pearly]

Bardzo się cieszę, że się poznałyśmy. Mam na imię Ewa, 49 lat i mieszkam z mężem i trójka (nie ma "a" z ogonkiem w moim ipadzie dzieci w centralnym Texasie. Tyle po polsku.
Just wanted to let you know that English is very much secondary to me. Back in my days we had to learn Russian and in high school I had French. So moving to the US I was fluent in 2 foreign languages but neither one of those was English I hope your tort gets over that thing soon. It may just be a cyst caused by repetitive tissue trauma (pressure or rubbing against the hard surface). If that's the case her body will re-absorb it. Just keep her away from situation where she's subject to this same activity (that's if location of the lump is consistent with the traumatic action) and warm soaks will aid here body in taking care of it. Chamomile sounds awesome!

 

[martaemha]

Witaj Ewa, mnie również jest bardzo miło Super, że mówisz jeszcze po polsku, to trudny język i chyba łatwo go zapomnieć.
I am 29 and luckily no longer had to learn Russian, which seems to be my parents' trauma. I was brought up in an English speaking country, namely in Malta so I would say I am quite fluent despite some minor mistakes at times!

I really hope you are right and tomorrow it will turn out that my tortoise is ok. I have already rearranged the enclosure a bit - added some basking lamps so that she is not tempted to climb her friend again. Unlike the bigger tortoise, she just loves taking a bath so over the next few days I will give her as much warm chamomile soaks as she pleases! I will keep you posted!

 

[Pearly]

Witaj Ewa, mnie również jest bardzo miło Super, że mówisz jeszcze po polsku, to trudny język i chyba łatwo go zapomnieć.
I am 29 and luckily no longer had to learn Russian, which seems to be my parents' trauma. I was brought up in an English speaking country, namely in Malta so I would say I am quite fluent despite some minor mistakes at times!

I really hope you are right and tomorrow it will turn out that my tortoise is ok. I have already rearranged the enclosure a bit - added some basking lamps so that she is not tempted to climb her friend again. Unlike the bigger tortoise, she just loves taking a bath so over the next few days I will give her as much warm chamomile soaks as she pleases! I will keep you posted!

Please do! And don't forget, we love pictures!

 

[martaemha]

Ok! No pictures of the leg yet, just some introductory shots of my torts!

\\

 

[Yvonne G]

Oh my...she is a big one, isn't she!

 

[Pearly]

Oh my...she is a big one, isn't she!

Cuties! Both of them!

 

[teresaf]

Perhaps the leg has been bitten by the other tort? Here on the forum keeping pairs is discouraged because one will pick on the other. You may not even notice it happening. Her being on TOP of the other....her staring at the other(intimidation), her following the other around (chasing her out). Stiff like that.

 

[Kasia]

Yesterday while giving my 30+ year old steppe tortoise a bath I've noticed a swelling in her back leg. Upon closer examination I found what appears to be roundish/oval tumor. It is rather soft, no hard masses. It does not affect her walking, climbing and she has a great appetite.

Today the vet punctured the skin with a syringe and when it gathered some watery blood, he proceeded to squeeze the transparent/bloody liquid. He made a microscopic slide and tomorrow I will know what he has found.
I am in Poland and don't really trust vets here as I have encountered literally few good herpetologists. What do you think about the actions that the vet has undertaken today? I've heard of abscesses being very popular in tortoises but the doctor said that the if it were an abscess there would be puss coming out of it and there was only little blood and transparent liquid.

Hejo

I'm from Poland too What city do You live in?? If Warsaw or near by area I can recommend You a GOOOD reptile Vet
Pozdrowienia

Kasia

 

[martaemha]

Yvonne - yes, they're both quite big! Pearly - and cute too!

So today I called the vet and he said that he hasn't found anything disturbing in the sample of plasma and blood. Just erytrocytes and very few inflammatory cells. This is good news however I've noticed that after yesterdays squeezing of this lump (initially it became smaller) today it is just as big as it was. Looks like the water has gathered there again. I am continuing with the chamomile soaks and arnica flower topical but no results so far. Today I managed to get some pictures. You can't really see the oval shaped lump, but her leg is visibly deformed.

Teresaf - thank you for your answer! This option seems very unlikely. The bigger tort is very calm and friendly (lets the smaller one eat out of his bowl etc). The only moment when they do get aggressive at times is spring and at this time they are immediately separated. I've noticed that keeping my torts together for the majority of the year is actually good for them. They are more active and curious and when they are alone they just sleep and keep their roaming round the enclosure to the minimum. Besides, If the big one with her shark jaws bit her leg, I would expect a visible wound.

 

[martaemha]

Hi Kasia! I live in Poznań, but come from Łódź

 

[ascott]

Yesterday while giving my 30+ year old steppe tortoise a bath I've noticed a swelling in her back leg. Upon closer examination I found what appears to be roundish/oval tumor. It is rather soft, no hard masses. It does not affect her walking, climbing and she has a great appetite.

Today the vet punctured the skin with a syringe and when it gathered some watery blood, he proceeded to squeeze the transparent/bloody liquid. He made a microscopic slide and tomorrow I will know what he has found.
I am in Poland and don't really trust vets here as I have encountered literally few good herpetologists. What do you think about the actions that the vet has undertaken today? I've heard of abscesses being very popular in tortoises but the doctor said that the if it were an abscess there would be puss coming out of it and there was only little blood and transparent liquid.

Is the swell/lumpy spot on or near the front or back of the knee joint?

 

[Kasia]

Hi Kasia! I live in Poznań, but come from Łódź

Don't know any Reptile Vets from Poznan but I was thinking mayby the tumor/swelling was caused by a splinter like blackberry or rose spike that came unseen until plasma gathered in that place and visible swelling came on. The same thing would happen to You or me - place would swell and until the spike would have been removed area would be sore

Ps. I also have Russian 30+ Love him so much

 

[Pearly]

Mam kolegę w Poznaniu
Hi, Marta,
so the lump is in her upper leg? Like a thigh region? I can't really tell by the picture, on first one her ankle looks like there maybe puffiness on the second one her thigh looks lumpy.
The fact that the swelling came back tells me that there must be source of this seepage and random muscle tissue is really not likely to collect so much fluid locally like that. My logic tells me that more likely scenario is either sick joint or lymph node producing all this fluid. What else if anything did the vet say?

 

[ascott]

Mam kolegę w Poznaniu
Hi, Marta,
so the lump is in her upper leg? Like a thigh region? I can't really tell by the picture, on first one her ankle looks like there maybe puffiness on the second one her thigh looks lumpy.
The fact that the swelling came back tells me that there must be source of this seepage and random muscle tissue is really not likely to collect so much fluid locally like that. My logic tells me that more likely scenario is either sick joint or lymph node producing all this fluid. What else if anything did the vet say?

There is a reason the area continues to aspirate...I also could not visually determine by the pics if the lumpy spot was in only the soft part of the leg or being generated near the knee joint...

 

[Kasia]

You're thinking ruptured joint capsule?? (Pęknięta torebka stawowa) every time she's running around joint is irritated and the joint liquid/limpha causes swelling?

 

[martaemha]

The lump is definitely in the soft part, surrounded by the baggy skin, it's quite far away from the knee, actually I would say it's close to this horny buttock (yeah I know tortoises don't have buttocks but I have no idea how to call this area).
The doctor examined the spot quite carefully with a magnifying glass because his first impression was that it might be a splinter. But he hasn't found anything.
He also said that he has no idea what to do in this case and that he feels he can't help me at this point.
If the puffiness remains despite chamomile soaks and the use of topical I will look for a different vet here or try to go to another city (Kasia - I know dr Maluta and dr Marciniak i Warsaw - my tort has been their patient several years ago).
I am wondering though why she keeps walking and climbing just as she used to with no difficulty if it all comes from sick joint... It is really not bothering her at all I've been touching this place many times and she's just perfectly ok with it.