some care questions

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pdrobber

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Since having my Russian tortoise Tori living with me in my apartment (not at my parents' place) I've been keeping track of everything a lot better. I fed her romaine lettuce and collard greens her first week or so (she had eaten both regularly in the past) and the past week has been green leaf lettuce and kale. I have been feeding her every other day and it's been going fine. I've been soaking her every other day as well for about 20 minutes in the sink with warm water. She excretes in the water every time. I also dust the food with tetrafauna reptocal calcium d3 and multivit supplements plus repcal tortoise food pellets (looks like fruity pebbles) that I ground up into a powder. This week I noticed her urates are kind of drier with some hard pieces in them. Which do you think is the most probable cause? the kale, too much calcium supplement, too much pellet food (corn based), not enough soaking, anything else you can think of...?
Should I completely stop giving the calcium with d3 and tortoise food pellets (corn based fruity pebbles looking stuff)? I already placed a cuttlebone in the enclosure (though I've yet to see her nibble it).
 

kimber_lee_314

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I have found that gritty urates is usually a sign on not enough water. Soaking is fine, but it doesn't guarantee that the tortoise is actually drinking. Try wetting the greens before feeding them.
 

dmmj

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I would stop using the fruity pebbles tort food myself, I can't find anything good about it, soaking will guarantee a bowel movement 99 percent of the time, but it does not mean he is drinking, if it is an adult I would give it access to water, mine don't like soaks but when i give them access to the water in a bowl or dish they always go and drink out of it and bathe, I change the water 3 or 4 times day sometimes. urates should look like cream cheese, if they don't he may not be getting enough water, even if you soak him all the time, I would give him access to water and let him decide how much water he needs. as to cuttle bones I have been giving mine the for years and to date I have never seen them eat them. I agree with wetting down the greens, i do that with mine all of the time.
 

pdrobber

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hi, thanks for the replies. the thing is I do wet the greens before feeding, I wash them and give them to her so they're wet. Also, I see her urinate a good amount of liquids so I don't see why it wouldn't make the urates more smooth...I'll try putting a water bowl she can drink from/sit in in her bin.
 

tortoisenerd

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I would stop the pellets and the vitamins (only use a pure calcium powder every 2-3 days), and use spring mix (no spinach or chard) as a basis for the diet, with 1-2 other greens a week (like the collard, turnip, mustard, etc greens), rotating through a list. Treats for < 5% of the diet like edible organic flowers, butternut squash, pumpkin, cactus pads. Feeding daily is better. If you feel the tort is overweight or you had some other reason to feed every other day, just feed less daily. Its very easy to over supplement when you mix D3 from the calcium plus vitamins plus a pellet food with vitamins. Just feed a varied natural diet and you don't need to risk the over-supplementation. D3 is fat soluble and especially dangerous as you torts makes their own as long as they have UVB (from a bulb or the sun), and calcium.

To decrease gritty urates, increase hydration by making the greens moist, soak regularly, have a moist substrate, and limit foods high in oxalic acid (don't only feed the greens high in it like dandelion, collard, mustard, watercress, which although are great greens, need to be given in moderation). You should still give a bit of calcium in addition to having a cuttlebone out as some torts don't seem to seek it out on their own, and a bit of calcium like every 2-3 days shouldn't be a risk. I would get a plastic container like a cat little pan (kitten size) for soaks. You don't want your tort to mix with your sink where you do dishes and such you eat off of (I wash the sink after I wash my tort's dishes, and use a separate brush for his stuff too). Plus sinks are usually metal and colder. Urates aren't just what the tort ate that week, but a build up over time, so it will take some time to improve them after making changes such as hydration and lower oxalic acid (ie. its probably more so what happened before you got the tort). Having urates up to a few times a week is normal, but the less gritty the better. Pooping in the water is normal for torts, and even non-stressed torts will do it (although do to decreased stress over time, this may decrease). Good luck!

How long have you had the tort? If only a few weeks or even a month, you may not see the changes yet. Also, some torts, no matter what you do, will have gritty urates. Only so much you can do. My tort is one of those...he has very gritty urates, but very infrequently (only every couple weeks...while he has regular urine a few days a week).

Oh yes, you need water in the enclosure! A large shallow dish that is easy to access.
 

pdrobber

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hmm interesting. OK so I've already put a water bowl in and I will be stopping the pellets and multi-vit. I've heard/researched mixed opinions on calcium so I'll prob use the supplement but a little less now that I have the cuttle bone in there (even though I haven't seen her bite it, maybe she does). I'll be getting some TNT (from carolinapetsupply) since I heard that's good. I also just recently heard about MVB bulbs (uvb and heat) and up to now I've used a uvb and basking separate; I think I'm going to get one once the bulbs I have now burn out.

I've heard LOTS of opinions on greens to feed. Some say feed any good greens, collards, mustards, lettuces, spring mix, kale, dandelion and just vary (no real limits on any just rotate) saying that some greens have more of this oxalic acid but lots of other vitamins while others have less acid but less vitamins...others say to limit the oxalic acid, I'm still not even sure what exactly it is, what it does (well I know it's something about binding something or other and preventing absorption of calcium or something), what the exact limit would be, and which greens have higher amounts of it(or where I can find a list of the amounts that's easy to understand). Some places say a green is high in it while another says it's low in it...

I've had my tortoise about 5 years, got her when I was in high school. I admit I did not take the best care of her, was a misinformed owner, went off to college and left her to the parents whom took even less care than I did, but I am really trying now that I have her in my apartment and I'm thoroughly enjoying seeing her happier!
 

jensgotfaith

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Peter- I'm so happy you came back with a passion to see your Tori do better. You're asking really good questions. Kate had some excellent suggestions. This forum is the absolute best I've found and has really blessed me and my Russian, and my Sulcatas. It's hard finding good information because so many other sources seem to contradict what is told here on the forum. What I've found is that much of the information out there is horribly outdated. The people here, quite a few of them have been raising torts for years and can tell you from experience what works and what doesn't. I'd rather have that knowledge than book knowledge any day.
 

tortoisenerd

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So glad you are trying to improve! Many on the forum are in the same boat you are. A little information can take you a long way. Don't beat yourself up over the past. There is more "bad" information on torts out there than "good". Pet stores usually aren't of help. The average tort owner doesn't have enough information to know that putting their tort in an aquarium with sand and iceberg and no water is a bad idea, because they've been told its ok, and seen others torts housed like that. Its pretty recently that we have all this information about UVB & calcium & humidity needed to prevent pyramiding.

The tube UVBs have very low UVB output. If you do choose to keep it for the 6 month life (they usually take longer to burn out, but their useful UVB life is 6 months, so mark that on your calendar), its up to you, but I think your tort will really thrive if you get the MVB now. If you've had this tube for more than 6 months, you really really need to replace it. If you can get your tort outside for sun on a regular basis, even 30 min a day most of the week, you don't need the bulb (if temps allow), just use light & heat as needed inside.

As for the greens & oxalic acid and such...I know it can be overwhelming at first. A good way to start is to look up the oxalic acid content of some common greens so you can get an idea. I like to compare to spinach since I know that is something way too high in oxalates for me to ever want to feed. The lettuces and turnip greens are all very low. Stuff like collard, mustard, radish, watercress, dandelion greens, are all high but they are still good greens in moderation and variety. I think spinach, chard, and beet greens are all too high and I wouldn't feed them. Another class of food to watch out for is goitrogens like kale. A simple starting diet is 55% spring mix (no spinach or red chard), 40% 1-2 other greens a week (turnip, mustard, collard, etc), rotating through a list, and 5% treats like pumpkin, butternut squash, edible organic flowers, and cactus pads. This is what I do. Great for those of us without a garden. I just have my list of good greens to rotate through, those that aren't in the spring mix and not too high in oxalic acid.

It isn't something to freak out about, but something to be aware of, and it isn't advisable to feed 100% of those greens. It binds to calcium to create calcium oxalate and can cause stones. The tort's urates can give you an indication too if you may be feeding too much oxalic acid, but hydration is also a variable. Dehydration and diets high in oxalates cause frequent gritty urates. Up to a couple times a week urates are normal, and the less gritty the better (like toothpaste). There isn't a formula that tells you how much is too much, and as you said, the data out there isn't consistent.

Here are some links:
http://tortoiseforum.org/Thread-Nutritional-Considerations-for-Tortoises-The-Balanced-Diet-Revealed
http://www.thetortoisetable.org.uk/site/plants_19.asp?mode=az&l=all to identify plants if you have an organic garden
http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/search/ you can get the oxalic acid content of some greens & foods here
http://www.turtlestuff.com/avoidthese.html oxalic acid content
http://www.chelonia.org/Articles/nutrientanalysis.htm oxalic acid content & vitamins
http://www.russiantortoise.org/russiantortoisediet.htm diet suggestions
http://russiantortoise.org/nutritional_analysis_of_kale.htm oxalic acid & link to paper on natural diet of Russians
http://russiantortoise.org/lettuce.htm interesting analysis showing iceberg isn't much worse than romaine
http://russiantortoise.org/calcium.htm risks of over-supplementing calcium & role of D3 & phosphorus & calcium
http://www.tortoisetrust.org/articles/vitamins.html vitamins
http://russiantortoise.org/nutrition_links.htm great list of nutrition links
http://russiantortoise.org/calcium_links.htm calcium links

One thing that is really tricky is depending on how the analysis was done, different studies show widely varying amounts of nutrients like oxalic acid. Sometimes its easier to take something like spinach as a baseline, and then see how that resource has the other greens compare to it. The info from russiantortoise.org is an example as that seems to vary from some other sites...its so tough to know what to go by. You can't let yourself get too caught up in it. Variety is a way to get around this a bit...almost any food is ok in moderation. For some reason in the wild torts have been observed as feeding almost primarily on weeds very high in oxalates, but in captivity the same diet would have disastrous results (large stones). Haven't seen much besides theories on why this is except dehydration in captivity. That is why many recommend that with a varied diet and good hydration, oxalates shouldn't be much of a concern.

The cuttlebone, pure calcium, and TNT sounds good. I like the TNT because you can't overdose the tort on it since its just ground up natural stuff. Frankly vitamin powders for torts scare me because who really knows how much to give?
 

pdrobber

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That, without a doubt is the best tortoise advice I have received yet. Thank you so much. I have a feeling I'm going to become a regular here on the forum...anway, I have been using the regular bulb type uvb bulbs (looks like an energy efficient light), and. Have had the current one for about a month, but im gonna guess its not as good as an mvb so ill be ordering one asap or be putting it on my christmas list lol. I plan to start using spring mix as a base and rotating the others (kale, collards, romaine, red and green leaf...) do you guys use coir/sand mixed or something else for substrate? Also, I had 2 hides in her big bin but she only used the one on the warm side, never went in the cool side one so I took it out to make room for a water bowl big enough for her to sit in...think that's ok or is it time for a bigger bin? I would love a tort table but its just not gonna happen in my nyc closet sized apartment...lol
 

tortoisenerd

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From what you wrote it sounds like you have a coil bulb? People on the forum generally don't trust those, as old models were linked to blinding torts...so I'd ditch that now. I'd order a Mega Ray (they are starting to ship now), or if you want to run out and get something sooner, Powersuns are sold at Petco for a ridiculous $80 or something (vs. $50 online for these bulbs, but they last a year). Good idea for diet, but romaine and green leaf and such are probably in the spring mix, so no need to double up on those (read the package, and learn to identify spinach & chard as it can pop up even if the package doesn't list it). I use aspen for my Russian...its dry, but I've had no pyramiding issues...Russians are far less prone to pyramiding than most other species. The dry substrate works better for us because we live in a damp climate in WA. Just don't get pine or cedar. If you do decide to go with a moist substrate, I personally think you don't need the sand. People are moving away from that now, and I certainly didn't like the sand when I used coconut coir + sand.

If your bin doesn't have enough room for more than one hide and the water, then yes its too small. For an adult Russian I'd like to see 8 sq ft or more. I have that for my Russian and am upgrading to 17 sq ft to spoil him for xmas, since he's had the 8 sq ft since he was a baby. Unless of course yours gets outside regularly, then you can go for a smaller indoor enclosure if they have the outdoor space (ideal). You should have warm, moderate, and cool hides available. Fake plants from a craft store are great because they take up less floor space. I like them especially for the hide near the basking spot as your tort will be warmer under that than in a box near the basking spot.

If you only see your tort in the warm side, your warm side might not be warm enough and/or your cool side might be a tad too cool. Do you have an accurate thermometer like a temp gun to get an idea of the gradient of the entire enclosure? Tort tables come in any size you build them...even two story. They can even be better than bins because you could even build one in an L shape to fit in a corner. You can also connect two tubs with a large tube if you don't find a larger one...the largest they come is a xmas tree size only available this time a year (see if you can find one not clear), which I think is about 5 or 6 sq ft, so still not that huge. Any bigger than that and you are looking at a specialty market, such as stock tanks, Waterland tubs, or Vision tubs (crazy expensive...we're getting one for $450 when you account for shipping!). Your tort really needs a large space to thrive, especially if you are seeing it be inactive, pacing the walls, etc...those are all signs of boredom and anxiety.
 

pdrobber

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hmm I suppose it would take some time and effort in planning and constructing but would be rewarding and relatively inexpensive...any suggestions of guidelines/plans w/ the best materials to use to make it sturdy, durable, etc? with my luck ill have legs breaking, weight unevenly distributed, walls not high enough, wood splitting, screws rusting, etc...
 
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