Some random international crime statistics

[Stephanie Logan]

Stephanie - don't believe the propoganda. Have you looked as switzerland for example?

"Switzerland
Main article: Gun politics in Switzerland
In one study by David Kopel of seven countries, including the United States and Japan, Switzerland is found to be one of the safest countries in the study.[33] In recent times political opposition has expressed a desire for tighter gun regulations.[33] Switzerland practices universal conscription, which requires that all able-bodied male citizens keep fully-automatic firearms at home in case of a call-up. Every male between the ages of 20 and 42 is considered a candidate for conscription into the military, and following a brief period of active duty will commonly be enrolled in the militia until age or an inability to serve ends his service obligation.[34] During their enrollment in the armed forces, these men are required to keep their government-issued selective fire combat rifles and semi-automatic handguns in their homes.[35] Up until September 2007, soldiers also received 20 rounds of government-issued ammunition in a sealed box for storage at home.[36] In addition to these official weapons, Swiss citizens are allowed to purchase surplus-to-inventory combat rifles, and shooting is a popular sport in all the Swiss cantons."

I have no problem with a well regulated militia.

I have a family member who is an air marshal, my brother-in-law is an FBI agent.

None of your information changes the numbers Jordan posted. Americans are more likely to be killed by firearms than the citizens of most other 1st world countries.

 

[chadk]

Chad, people who carry guns are 4.5 x more likely to be shot and 4.2 times more likely to get killed compared with an unarmed citizen (source: http://www.newscientist.com/article...un-increases-risk-of-get-shot-and-killed.html). Not to mention that people with guns in their home are 5 times more likely to have suicide committed in their home, plus regardless of storage "practice, type of gun, or number of firearms in the home," having a gun in the home increases the risk of firearm homicide (source: http://aje.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/160/10/929). Many other studies find that guns kept in the home are associated with an increase in the risk of homicide by a family member or intimate acquaintance. Another study also finds that gun owning families in which abuse/assaults take place are far more likely to end in death (source: http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/full/329/15/1084). Chad, if you decide to list counter articles I ask that you please list scholarly articles, such as the ones I listed from "Oxford Journal" (Oxford Univ. publication) or "the New England Journal of Medicine" or the "American Journal of Public Health," just so our sources can be on par in reputability.

Japan has one of the highest suicide rates of all countries. A gun is not needed to have high suicide rates....

And your theory does not hold - look at the suicide rate by gun comparing Japan (few have guns) to Switzerland (everyone had guns).

And guess what, the suicide by knife rate is much higher in homes where their are knives, no matter how they are stored...

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None of your information changes the numbers Jordan posted. Americans are more likely to be killed by firearms than the citizens of most other 1st world countries.

The numbers posted were not even a valid set of data points. So it was really a meaningless post. You can't pull stuff from a UN source not having any idea how the data was collected, and then compare to the CDC in the US. It works only if the outcome matches your pre-concieved ideas.

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Chad, people who carry guns are 4.5 x more likely to be shot and 4.2 times more likely to get killed compared with an unarmed citizen (source: http://www.newscientist.com/article...un-increases-risk-of-get-shot-and-killed.html).

And this statistic is so flawed it's crazy. The study took place in Philly... Gangsters and thugs packing heat. Drug dealers. Crackheads.

Notice they did not do this study in a rural area in Montanna for example - where honest hard working citizens with legal guns and permits to carry abound...

There are lies, damn lies, and statistics

 

[Stephanie Logan]

I do not believe your suggestion that every source that does not agree with yours is some kind of left-wing conspiracy...

The gun figures have been done and redone for years, and the trends are consistent and valid.

 

[DoctorCosmonaut]

Chad, people who carry guns are 4.5 x more likely to be shot and 4.2 times more likely to get killed compared with an unarmed citizen (source: http://www.newscientist.com/article...un-increases-risk-of-get-shot-and-killed.html). Not to mention that people with guns in their home are 5 times more likely to have suicide committed in their home, plus regardless of storage "practice, type of gun, or number of firearms in the home," having a gun in the home increases the risk of firearm homicide (source: http://aje.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/160/10/929). Many other studies find that guns kept in the home are associated with an increase in the risk of homicide by a family member or intimate acquaintance. Another study also finds that gun owning families in which abuse/assaults take place are far more likely to end in death (source: http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/full/329/15/1084). Chad, if you decide to list counter articles I ask that you please list scholarly articles, such as the ones I listed from "Oxford Journal" (Oxford Univ. publication) or "the New England Journal of Medicine" or the "American Journal of Public Health," just so our sources can be on par in reputability.

Japan has one of the highest suicide rates of all countries. A gun is not needed to have high suicide rates....

And your theory does not hold - look at the suicide rate by gun comparing Japan (few have guns) to Switzerland (everyone had guns).

And guess what, the suicide by knife rate is much higher in homes where their are knives, no matter how they are stored...

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None of your information changes the numbers Jordan posted. Americans are more likely to be killed by firearms than the citizens of most other 1st world countries.

The numbers posted were not even a valid set of data points. So it was really a meaningless post. You can't pull stuff from a UN source not having any idea how the data was collected, and then compare to the CDC in the US. It works only if the outcome matches your pre-concieved ideas.

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Chad, people who carry guns are 4.5 x more likely to be shot and 4.2 times more likely to get killed compared with an unarmed citizen (source: http://www.newscientist.com/article...un-increases-risk-of-get-shot-and-killed.html).

And this statistic is so flawed it's crazy. The study took place in Philly... Gangsters and thugs packing heat. Drug dealers. Crackheads.

Notice they did not do this study in a rural area in Montanna for example - where honest hard working citizens with legal guns and permits to carry abound...

There are lies, damn lies, and statistics

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Did you read the three studies? While one didn't, the others did cover rural and national statistics. And in the study I posted they specifically said that gun suicide is higher than knife suicide. You didn't read them, yet you are so quick to discredit them. You criticize us for our sources yet never provide any expect for one about Switzerland from Wikipedia (If you are so fond of Wikipedia over direct sources, then check out their article on suicide methods in which it lists that firearms accounts as the most common method of suicide (source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_methods#Firearms )), yet I report to you from medical journals, Oxford press, the UN, the FBI, the Department of Justice, and the CDC, and you don't look at any of them and make comments that confirm that you haven't critically analyzed any of them.

You are just here to attack Stephanie and I unjustly.

 

[dmmj]

I can not believe anyone could seriously use newscientist.com as a legitamate news source, or wikipedia?

 

[alfiethetortoise]

It would be interesting to see where China, and Antartica were on this list....

And the gun buisness, if you have a gun, and will use it to shoot, then obviously it's going to reflect the crime rates in the county, country, whatever. And it depends on the 'culture' surronding the gun. When we were kids, we were not allowed toy guns, period. Not even those ones you put into a potato. Because my parents thought that promoting shooting other people, even in game play, was not good. But we grew up in a small village with no real crime. It is different if your facing real threats in say South Africa, and you need your gun for safety. I appreiate that for some people, even others knowing you have a gun, will stop them breaking an entry into your property.

p.s. I once used Wikipedia in a dissertation at univeristy. Actually, i didn't reference wikipedia, but i did reference the reference Wikipedia had put. And the Assignment got a 1st. It was on the Christian Ideology in Childrens Literature, namely Harry Potter and C.S. Lewis. And it even won a prize. So Wikipedia must count for something!

 

[dmmj]

welll I don't trust wiki since anyone at anytime can edit the info there, just sounds like fraud heaven to me personally.

 

[chadk]

I do not believe your suggestion that every source that does not agree with yours is some kind of left-wing conspiracy...

The gun figures have been done and redone for years, and the trends are consistent and valid.

See Stephanie, that is what I'm talking about. Because the original stats listed match what you believe is 'truth', you don't question the source.

OK, I never said anything about conspiracy of any kind. What I said was that Jordan cherry picked data from various sources and put it all together in a nice neat table as if it was the a valid study comparing countries on a equal level. Do you not see how that is just not a good way to post meaningful statistics? Using that methodology, you could make those number reflect any trend you wanted. Again, NOT saying that is what was done. I just don't see the point behind all the crying when I ask a couple reasonable questions about the source(s).

 

[Yvonne G]

This is sorta' turning into a heated argument, isn't it? Why so concerned about statistics in an off topic chit chat? Nobody said anything about if you don't believe this data I'm going to come take away all your tortoises. You can take it or leave it can't you? Can't you just say I don't agree with your statistics and let it go at that?

 

[chadk]

Did you read the three studies? While one didn't, the others did cover rural and national statistics. And in the study I posted they specifically said that gun suicide is higher than knife suicide. You didn't read them, yet you are so quick to discredit them. You criticize us for our sources yet never provide any expect for one about Switzerland from Wikipedia (If you are so fond of Wikipedia over direct sources, then check out their article on suicide methods in which it lists that firearms accounts as the most common method of suicide (source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_methods#Firearms )), yet I report to you from medical journals, Oxford press, the UN, the FBI, the Department of Justice, and the CDC, and you don't look at any of them and make comments that confirm that you haven't critically analyzed any of them.

You are just here to attack Stephanie and I unjustly.

OK, focus like a lazor... Did YOU read the studies you posted? I read the one you just cited about being more likely to be shot if you are pakcing heat yourself. But only if you live in Philly and are a thug out fighting for drug turf (ooops, they left part out...).

Your brilliant acrticle on guns and suicide said a shocking thing about if you have a fun in your house and want to kill yourself, you have a higher chance of dying by a gun shot than if you don't have a gun in the house.

In another study, they found that people jumping off bridges for suicide were 100 times more likely to die from jumping off a bridge if they actually had one in their town.

So fond of wikipedia? LOL. I quoted something openly from there that was just a simple fact about a country. Nothing controversial and could easily be debunked if you didn't like it. Did you find something wrong with info on Switzerland? Or are you just feeling a little embarrassed and looking to take a shot back at me for just asking a few simple questions?

Again, you say I'm not reading what you provided as sources, but I did. I dont' think you are though. You just said the most common form of suicide is by firearm. Would that be in the US, or does this go for all countries? And did you see that when gun laws are made tougher, crime and suicide rates continued to climb?

Unjustly attacking you and Stephanie??? Seriously, man-up and stop acting like a 6yr old hiding behind his mommy's apron strings. You posted some stats and someone asked questions. Don't take things so personal and seriously. Its just a discussion and asking questions is how people have discussions...

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This is sorta' turning into a heated argument, isn't it? Why so concerned about statistics in an off topic chit chat? Nobody said anything about if you don't believe this data I'm going to come take away all your tortoises. You can take it or leave it can't you? Can't you just say I don't agree with your statistics and let it go at that?

Or, you could do like we do with other topics that head this way and move it into the 'debatable topics' area.

Look again at my first comments. Nothing attacking or threatening about those comments. Just simple questions about where the data came from.

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[Maggie Cummings]

OK, I asked you all to settle down and I was ignored. I am tired of the personal insults Chad. If you cannot talk to other members with respect you are done with this thread.
This is not in the debatable section and I think the way you have talked to Jordan and Stephanie is just not acceptable.