Subspecies ID

[travisgn]

I recently (last week) got a pair of Greek torts. I have read that identifying the subspecies is helpful in narrowing the kind of environment and diet that is best for them. So if anyone could help me out, I know there are some experts here.

Thanks!





The two photos of them in a smallish plastic tub are from the day I bought them. That was their previous home. I have since upgraded their enclosure.

 

[oswego tort lover]

THOSE LOOK LIKE RUSSIANS FRIEND....ED

 

[travisgn]

Really? At first I wasn't convinced that they were Greeks at all (the person who sold them seemed moderately knowledgeable but by no means an expert), but I did check for the spurs and found them on both, though they are small (I figured that would indicate a relatively young age). Unless any other species has similar spurs I am fairly certain they are Greeks, though I am totally unsure about subspecies.

 

[Meg90]

You have Russians ----not sure what you mean by checking for spurs?

 

[travisgn]

Ah, well, I guess it doesn't really matter. The care for both is fairly similar, correct? I may have to make some minor modifications.

Greeks were actually my second choice to Russians, if only because Russians are perhaps a tad bit smaller.

I was referring to the spurs on the thighs, near the tail. It was my understanding that the term "Greek" tort is equivalent to "spur-thigh" tortoise, and that the spurs near the tail are indicative of that species. Someone correct me if I am wrong about that.

I had also read that Greeks much more commonly exhibit some lipping or up-turning of the shell, especially in the back, and my female has that.

I looked at hundreds of images but both species seem to have a reasonable amount of variation, and I have trouble identifying colors and patterns (color blind).

 

[kimber_lee_314]

They are beautiful Russians!!! You can treat them basically the same as the greeks. They are all testudos!

 

[Kristina]

Definitely Russians I have 4 Russians, and they are hoots, every one of them. You will enjoy them greatly!

 

[egyptiandan]

Agreed You have a pair of Russian tortoises, Testudo horsfieldii.
Russians have both a nail on the end of their tail and thigh spurs.

Danny

 

[travisgn]

Thanks again everyone!

It is only now after hours of looking on my own and then coming here for help that I found a good identification guide here: http://www.britishcheloniagroup.org.uk/caresheets/identity.htm

Might be a nice thing to sticky for other people who are new to tortoises.

That site was also the first I found that said that Russians have tubercles to the sides of the tail, which is what I confused for spurs. The part about numbering of claws was also helpful for confirmation.

Is there any good reason to intentionally mislead someone? Are Greeks considered to be more valuable than Russians? The woman I got them from said she got them at different times from different places. So either she was lied to, or she lied to me. I guess she might have just made an honest mistake.

 

[egyptiandan]

Those are a pretty well matched pair so most likely came in together. They were purchased together, can't see why they wouldn't have been. Got no clue why she would sell them as Greeks, though you probably would ask more money for a pair of Greeks than a pair of Russians.

Danny

 

[Maggie Cummings]

Thanks again everyone!

It is only now after hours of looking on my own and then coming here for help that I found a good identification guide here: http://www.britishcheloniagroup.org.uk/caresheets/identity.htm

Might be a nice thing to sticky for other people who are new to tortoises.

That site was also the first I found that said that Russians have tubercles to the sides of the tail, which is what I confused for spurs. The part about numbering of claws was also helpful for confirmation.

Is there any good reason to intentionally mislead someone? Are Greeks considered to be more valuable than Russians? The woman I got them from said she got them at different times from different places. So either she was lied to, or she lied to me. I guess she might have just made an honest mistake.

We don't need to sticky that link...we have Danny, he's better than any link!!!

 

[travisgn]

I have been lurking for a couple weeks in anticipation of finding a tortoise of my own. I know you have some very knowledgeable people here, but the one thing they don't usually do is explain how they identify a species or subspecies. To me, at least, that is somewhat important, hence the usefulness of the guide.

Those are a pretty well matched pair so most likely came in together. They were purchased together, can't see why they wouldn't have been. Got no clue why she would sell them as Greeks, though you probably would ask more money for a pair of Greeks than a pair of Russians.

That's really interesting. Are you saying they are well matched as in they likely came from the same clutch, or share one or both parents?

The woman told me that she has had the female for approx. 7 years, and that she only got the male a year ago when the previous male escaped and was lost. Based on her story, I was wondering if the male was old enough to be sexually mature. His plastron shows little concavity, though he has a much longer tail that he tucks to the side. When I first saw them he was mounting her, but with little vigor, I guess you could say. He stopped when the enclosure was disturbed. She is much more outgoing than him, and he shows no aggressive tendencies towards her at all.

 

[Terry Allan Hall]

Not knowing the lady in question, I hesitate questioning her motivations in selling a pair of Russians as a pair of Greeks...but around here, a Greek or Hermann's goes for about 2 to 3X what a Russian sells for, and are not as often found w/o special ordering them.

 

[egyptiandan]

No well matched as in coming from the same area of the country they came from. How big are the pair, SCL wise? (straight carapace length)
If the male isn't vigorously mating with the female, he's been her more than a year.

Guides are great and usually very helpful. It's just that that one is very out of date.

Danny

 

[travisgn]

No well matched as in coming from the same area of the country they came from. How big are the pair, SCL wise? (straight carapace length)
If the male isn't vigorously mating with the female, he's been her more than a year.

He's about 5" on the dot if I measured correctly. She has been content deep down in her burrow for the last several hours and I didn't want to disturb her to measure her. She probably has 1.5 inches on him. I can measure tomorrow.

It's just that that one is very out of date.

Oh, I see.