Tears.

[kingskettle]

When I picked Frankel up this morning to put him in his bath, I noticed he was streaming with tears from both eyes. Had he had a bad dream, is he sad, or does it mean something more sinister and some nasty disease is in the pipeline? I've just nipped outside and looked at him again where he is grazing and all the tears have gone so hopefully it was just a bad dream. Whaddya think?????

 

[tyler0912]

Sometimes it's a sign of dry and dusty substrate?

What do you have him on?

 

[wellington]

I agree with Tyler0912. Maybe even something else. I don't think they cry like humans over bad dreams. What is your substrate and humidity?

 

[GeoTerraTestudo]

When I picked Frankel up this morning to put him in his bath, I noticed he was streaming with tears from both eyes. Had he had a bad dream, is he sad, or does it mean something more sinister and some nasty disease is in the pipeline? I've just nipped outside and looked at him again where he is grazing and all the tears have gone so hopefully it was just a bad dream. Whaddya think?????

To my knowledge, humans are the only animals to shed tears due to sad emotion. However, other animals (and humans) can shed tears due to eye irritation, dryness, etc. Check that the humidity in your tortoise's enclosure is right. Also, as mentioned above, make sure that there is no dust or debris. Finally, if your tortoise is not getting enough beta-carotene/vitamin A, that could give him dry eyes, too, so make sure he is getting a good diet, preferably with vitamin and mineral supplementation.

 

[kingskettle]

Sorry, my post was a bit tongue in cheek! At night, he sleeps on newspaper with a CE lamp on to make sure the temp is right. I also have a container of water next to the "cave" for humidity. I've never seen the tears before.

 

[GeoTerraTestudo]

Sorry, my post was a bit tongue in cheek! At night, he sleeps on newspaper with a CE lamp on to make sure the temp is right. I also have a container of water next to the "cave" for humidity. I've never seen the tears before.

Hmm ... well, I've never kept leopard tortoises, but generally speaking you want a substrate that can hold moisture, and that the tortoise or box turtle can burrow into a bit. There are some instances when you'd use newspaper, but it's usually just a temporary arrangement.

I'll let others who have experience with leopards chime in, but I would think that could explain the dry eyes: the wrong kind of substrate.

 

[kingskettle]

I did have them on coir which I damped down but asked on this forum a couple of weeks ago if they still need humidity now they are older and a reply came from a leopard expert that I could just bed them down on newspaper as they were outside all day every day and only came in to sleep. He had no tears this morning and seems the picture of health, eating drinking,pooing etc. What's a girl to do with conflicting advice????

---

Here's Frankel grazing this afternoon----eyes are perfecto!

www.cactusinspain.com

 

[GeoTerraTestudo]

I did have them on coir which I damped down but asked on this forum a couple of weeks ago if they still need humidity now they are older and a reply came from a leopard expert that I could just bed them down on newspaper as they were outside all day every day and only came in to sleep. He had no tears this morning and seems the picture of health, eating drinking,pooing etc. What's a girl to do with conflicting advice????

Hmm ... I thought newspaper was to be used in a hospital pen, so that if the tortoise has a wound, you can use treat it without debris getting stuck in it or causing an infection.

To my mind, though, even if a tortoise is outdoors all day everyday, bringing him in at night is still a permanent arrangement that calls for a good, moisture-holding substrate like coco coir (as you were using).

I'm glad your guy is feeling well again this morning. Maybe ambient humidity is up again today?

As for conflicting advice, experts may disagree. There may be more than one correct answer, but if there is only one, it's important to understand the reason for that opinion.

EDIT: Aw, what a cute tortoise!

 

[kingskettle]

OK So you think I should put them back on the coir again??? Not a problem, I can do that. I've run out of newspaper anyway! I was just a bit worried that I may be keeping them humid when it wasn't possibly a good thing seeing as how they were no longer babies.

 

[GeoTerraTestudo]

I would not use newspaper on a permanent basis. I use 100% coco coir for my two Russians, and I think it works very well. Other people like cypress mulch or soils like top soil, potting soil, or organic soil, which do not contain perlite or vermiculite. Sand is generally discouraged, because if ingested it can lead to gut impaction. There are other options, but those usually seem to work best. They provide a humid microclimate and allow the tortoise to dig.

Yes, I would switch back to coco coir. I assume you still have it somewhere. As for humidity, leopard tortoises are interesting. In Africa, they inhabit a range of moisture regimes, from forest to savanna to grassland to desert. Baby leopards (like all tortoises) hide a lot to avoid predation, which is one reason they experience such high humidity levels, another being the time of year they hatch (rainy season).

Adults may prefer lower humidity levels, but not as low as other species. Again, I have never kept a leopard myself, but my understanding is that under 70% relative humidity is good, with 40-50% being the preferred range. For both babies and adults, it looks like excessively dry air (among other things) can lead to pyramiding. Interestingly, it's not unusual to encounter leopard tortoises with some degree of pyramiding in the wild, perhaps due to aridity.

Remember that leopard tortoises, like all tortoises, benefit from a substrate that is moist, but not wet, because it provides a humid microclimate that can raise humidity some 20% above levels out in the open air. Even tortoise species that come from drier grasslands and deserts (like the sulcata, Russian, and Gopherus species) spend a lot of time in a burrow, where slightly higher humidity helps them conserve water.

All of this is to say that, your leopard tortoise will probably benefit from a moist substrate. Coco coir should be good (it's my favorite). I hope someone with direct experience with this species will share some pearls of wisdom with us soon.

 

[kingskettle]

They're back on the damp coir.

 

[GeoTerraTestudo]

They're back on the damp coir.

You mean moist, right?

 

[Tom]

Keeping them on newspaper won't kill them, but it's not ideal in my opinion either. As they get larger, they don't dehydrate as quickly as one with less mass, so humidity becomes less important. It's still good for them, as long as it doesn't also get cold. If you are using a CHE to maintain indoor nighttime temps, I think you are fine with still using the coir, or something similar.

There really is no "right" answer. Just people's personal preferences.

 

[Neal]

My take on this - at this stage in your tortoises life, it is really not going to receive much benefit from being kept on moist or damp substrate provided he has a water dish and is kept well hydrated. It's not going to hurt him, but it's more effort on your part to keep it moist with no real additional benefit.


Newspaper at night should not be a problem, but as a matter of preference I think you are better off with the coco coir. It just doesn't need to be kept moist.

 

[Camirdra]

Are you sure he is a "he"? Females tear up before they lay... just thought I'd throw that out there...

 

[kingskettle]

Yep, he is a male for sure as I've been privy to his privates! The coir is damp,not soggy but I expect they also pee on it at times as well.

 

[GeoTerraTestudo]

Yep, he is a male for sure as I've been privy to his privates! The coir is damp,not soggy but I expect they also pee on it at times as well.

You want moist, not damp. I know this sounds like a pedantic grammar lesson, but the distinction is not trivial.

"Dry" means containing almost no water, and "wet" means having free-flowing water.

"Damp" means having enough water that it can seep out and make things wet.

"Moist" means holding water, but not so much that it can really wet other things.

The only water leaving moist coco coir should be vapor, which increases humidity. Damp coco coir is going to get your tortoise wet, and could promote mold, shell rot, and/or respiratory infection. You want something that will maintain/increase relative humidity, not something that is going to make your terrestrial pet feel like he is in a swampy environment.