Tortoise lost during hibernation

[fordie]

Hi

I wondered if you could give your opinion on where we went wrong.
We inherited a female Herman's tortoise (Shelby) 17 months ago and unfortunately we've just lost her during her second hibernation.
She was approx 10 years old and hadn't grown in length since the wind down to her first hibernation but was a little heavier (although still towards the bottom end of the Jackson ration)
We have successfully hibernated our other Herman's tortoise (George) for 7 years and so I felt comfortable doing so, but after this I feel so guilty and full of doubt. The tortoises got on really well and in the summer would often find each other and sit together in the garden. George had always been aggressive towards other tortoises (biting their legs) but never showed any of this towards Shelby. Maybe it was because Shelby was bigger (or female or both).
As I mentioned Shelby was inherited from from a family member who had passed away and as she hadn't been hibernated in the first 8 years she was really big and her shell was really big and flat, but with pyramiding. George did try and mate with her on a few occasions but because of her large overgrown flat shell it didn't look like it would ever be possible to succeed.
Now that she hasn't woken up I'm thinking of all the possibilities of what could have gone wrong, and looking at her weight there is something I should have paid more attention too.
At the start of her wind down on 9th November 2012 she was 704g and two weeks later she was 684g I don't remember seeing any more poo from either of them after the first 2 weeks of winding down, and I bathed them regularly to try to get them to flush out any more waste. Her weight at the end of the wind down on 9th December was 702g. At the time I was surprised but thought the initial weight loss would have been the losing waste and maybe she had been drinking and put a bit back on, on that I'd misweighed her previously, but with hindsight I realise this was unlikely and I should have paid more attention to it!.

Could you think of any other reasons that could have contributed weight gain during this wind down, she could have been carrying eggs? as I mentioned I feel this would have been highly unlikely and she would have been ok to carry them through hibernation and lay them upon waking?, or eating waste or her bedding? (kitchen roll covered by wood chippings?) can you think of any other reasons? a tumour?

Her full weight recordings were as follows:
9th November start of wind down - 704g
27th November - 684g
9th December upon hibernating (fridge method) - 702g
20th December - 694g
8th January - 690g
20th January - 684g
10 February - upon waking and finding her dead 639g as fluids had leaked out - 9 weeks in total

I checked them both far more regularly than I weighed them and observed they had moved about but weren't showing any real signs of stirring and were alive and well with no signs of urination and the temperature was a steady 4c throughout, although as I was planning top wake them both up this weekend just gone it was 2 weeks since I last looked at them and so it was within this time that she died. Any help or advice would be really appreciated

Thank You

 

[campersmom]

I'm so sorry for your loss. It sounds like you gave her a good life after the passing of her first person. I hope you can take comfort in knowing she was loved.

 

[Terry Allan Hall]

Truly, truly sorry for your loss. It's never easy to lose such a wonderful companion.

Stories like this are why so many modern-day tortoise keepers choose not to hibernate their pets...no matter how careful you are, tragedies can still happen.

 

[Tim/Robin]

Sorry for your loss!!! I know it is very difficult.

What went wrong is you hibernated it!!! There is no reason to hibernate captive tortoises! I know that sounds harsh, but it is absolutely true.

 

[cemmons12]

So sorry for your loss. I know this is why I will never ever hibernate my Russian, just not worth the risk. Plus I would miss her sweet face!

 

[sibi]

Sorry to hear about your loss. I have a baby Gulf Coast boxie that was born in the end of September. She was suppose to hibernate during the winter, but I was to afraid to let this tiny baby go to sleep after just being born. So, I kept waking her, and feeding her. I would have been stressed to let her hibernate. I knew nothing about her species and certainly knew nothing about her hibernation. I think after reading about this, I'm never going to let her hibernate.

 

[wellington]

So sorry for your loss. It would be hard to ever know why she didn't make if. Could be a number of things. Thankfully you were there to take her into your home and family and love her. She also knew and had a friend in George, maybe even a boyfriend in him. She didn't die alone and unloved. That's always a good thing.

 

[lynnedit]

Hi

I wondered if you could give your opinion on where we went wrong.
We inherited a female Herman's tortoise (Shelby) 17 months ago and unfortunately we've just lost her during her second hibernation.
She was approx 10 years old and hadn't grown in length since the wind down to her first hibernation but was a little heavier (although still towards the bottom end of the Jackson ration)
We have successfully hibernated our other Herman's tortoise (George) for 7 years and so I felt comfortable doing so, but after this I feel so guilty and full of doubt. The tortoises got on really well and in the summer would often find each other and sit together in the garden. George had always been aggressive towards other tortoises (biting their legs) but never showed any of this towards Shelby. Maybe it was because Shelby was bigger (or female or both).
As I mentioned Shelby was inherited from from a family member who had passed away and as she hadn't been hibernated in the first 8 years she was really big and her shell was really big and flat, but with pyramiding. George did try and mate with her on a few occasions but because of her large overgrown flat shell it didn't look like it would ever be possible to succeed.
Now that she hasn't woken up I'm thinking of all the possibilities of what could have gone wrong, and looking at her weight there is something I should have paid more attention too.
At the start of her wind down on 9th November 2012 she was 704g and two weeks later she was 684g I don't remember seeing any more poo from either of them after the first 2 weeks of winding down, and I bathed them regularly to try to get them to flush out any more waste. Her weight at the end of the wind down on 9th December was 702g. At the time I was surprised but thought the initial weight loss would have been the losing waste and maybe she had been drinking and put a bit back on, on that I'd misweighed her previously, but with hindsight I realise this was unlikely and I should have paid more attention to it!.

Could you think of any other reasons that could have contributed weight gain during this wind down, she could have been carrying eggs? as I mentioned I feel this would have been highly unlikely and she would have been ok to carry them through hibernation and lay them upon waking?, or eating waste or her bedding? (kitchen roll covered by wood chippings?) can you think of any other reasons? a tumour?

Her full weight recordings were as follows:
9th November start of wind down - 704g
27th November - 684g
9th December upon hibernating (fridge method) - 702g
20th December - 694g
8th January - 690g
20th January - 684g
10 February - upon waking and finding her dead 639g as fluids had leaked out - 9 weeks in total

I checked them both far more regularly than I weighed them and observed they had moved about but weren't showing any real signs of stirring and were alive and well with no signs of urination and the temperature was a steady 4c throughout, although as I was planning top wake them both up this weekend just gone it was 2 weeks since I last looked at them and so it was within this time that she died. Any help or advice would be really appreciated

Thank You

As you can see, the majority of keepers on this forum don't hibernate their tortoises (certainly more box turtle keepers do).
Those that do hibernate Med torts often do so outside, as they live in warmer climates. You might consider also posting on a UK site, where they do hibernate more often.
Sometimes a tort can hide illness or organ malfunction for some time. It is possible that she would have declined w/o hibernation.
I am so sorry to hear of your loss, that had to be devastating to see.

 

[fordie]

Sorry for your loss!!! I know it is very difficult.

What went wrong is you hibernated it!!! There is no reason to hibernate captive tortoises! I know that sounds harsh, but it is absolutely true.

- in the uk its widely believed that Tortoises which are not hibernated can become lethargic and are less likely to breed successfully. Due to the fact that they are fed through the winter tortoises which are not hibernated can also grow too quickly which can potentially cause them health problems in later life.

Shelby who wasn't hibernated for the first 8 years was so much bigger than George (and 704g to 440g) with a deformed shell which meant she wasn't as mobile or agile as George, I believed by hibernating her once I got her 17 months ago this would slow down her growth and over time make her bones stronger (if all the damage hasn't already been done) and make them more likely to breed. I am now very reluctant to hibernate again after this, especially as George doesn't now have a potential partner to breed with. It's interesting to hear its not done much in the USA. I'll post this on some uk forums aswell, I didn't realise this was a us based forum as I just downloaded an app on my iPhone
Thanks
Craig

 

[Yvonne G]

That is the way people think here in the U.S. too, Craig, but its just not true. I have two female desert tortoises that I've had to keep up for the past 4 winters because they have abscesses on their noses that I just can't seem to clear up. They are otherwise in great shape and never lethargic. They live outside the rest of the year and except for their noses no one would even know there was anything wrong with them. Not hibernating them for the past 4 years has not affected them in the least.

I allow all my hibernating species to hibernate simply because it is easier for me due to the fact I have so many tortoises. But every so often I lose one during hibernation. It's hard to know exactly what goes wrong, but my gut feeling is that the tortoise was sick or somehow compromised prior to hibernation. Symptoms don't always show themselves, so its very hard to know if your tortoise is in good shape prior to hibernation.

I'm so sorry that you lost your tortoise. This is a hard thing to have to go through.

 

[Terry Allan Hall]

Sorry for your loss!!! I know it is very difficult.

What went wrong is you hibernated it!!! There is no reason to hibernate captive tortoises! I know that sounds harsh, but it is absolutely true.

- in the uk its widely believed that Tortoises which are not hibernated can become lethargic and are less likely to breed successfully. Due to the fact that they are fed through the winter tortoises which are not hibernated can also grow too quickly which can potentially cause them health problems in later life.

That used to be the general "knowledge" until possibly the 40's, when it was discovered that it simply wasn't true...it has no bad affect of them at all. No idea who first finally challenged this idea

My first tortoise, a Hermann's that was previously my Grandfather's pet since the mid-40s, and, after his passing, mine for about 19 more years, was never hibernated, lived in captivity for about 50 years, and was an adult when he found her, so likely was at least 60 when she, herself, passed away.

Shelby who wasn't hibernated for the first 8 years was so much bigger than George (and 704g to 440g) with a deformed shell which meant she wasn't as mobile or agile as George, I believed by hibernating her once I got her 17 months ago this would slow down her growth and over time make her bones stronger (if all the damage hasn't already been done) and make them more likely to breed. I am now very reluctant to hibernate again after this, especially as George doesn't now have a potential partner to breed with. It's interesting to hear its not done much in the USA. I'll post this on some uk forums aswell, I didn't realise this was a us based forum as I just downloaded an app on my iPhone
Thanks
Craig

To me, the best thing about not artificially hibernating my tortoises is that I can daily monitor their health, so if anything is wrong, I can (hopefully) catch it before it goes too far.

The mind-set of treating a pet as if a wild animal never made much sense to me...as they're a pet, they're no longer wild.

 

[cherylim]

I've never heard of that belief being particularly common in the UK, Craig. But then, I make a deliberate effort to avoid any UK-based tortoise forums as I've found them to be quite hostile, so I could be missing out on a lot of the chat!

I'm another that feels there are too many risks involved in hibernation to ever do it. Like Chris, I'd miss Emrys too much anyway!

 

[Terry Allan Hall]

I've never heard of that belief being particularly common in the UK, Craig. But then, I make a deliberate effort to avoid any UK-based tortoise forums as I've found them to be quite hostile, so I could be missing out on a lot of the chat!

I'm another that feels there are too many risks involved in hibernation to ever do it. Like Chris, I'd miss Emrys too much anyway!

I've read a very old, turn-of-the-last century-era, reptile book that advocated forcing reptiles, even non-tropicals, to be cooled down for a few months every winter.

Had quite a few other questionable ideas, as well, such as adding meat to European tortoises' diets a few times a week (supposedly to give them greater stamina in captivity) and to never put a water dish in their enclosure, that all the water they'll ever need comes from their food.

Don't recall who wrote it, but I'll look it up, next time I have access to the Fort Worth Public Library, where I checked it out, and I'll share the title/author then.