Tortoises and box turtles
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EricIvins said:
I don't think that's accurate. Actually, there's no such thing as a 100% pure carnivore or herbivore. Cats eat a little bit of grass, and deer eat a small amount of meat. By that standard, all animals are omnivores. In reality, only animals that eat a wide variety of foods are truly omnivorous.
Sure, most tortoises may eat some meat if they come across it. Redfoots and their relatives eat a bit more, and box turtles eat more still. Thus, box turtles, raccoons, and humans are omnivorous. Tortoises, cattle, and elephants are herbivorous. Snapping turtles, sharks, and wolves are carnivorous.
As for cohabitating boxies and torties, to my mind, disease transmission is the biggest risk. This is because there are some tortoises whose environmental requirements are very similar to those of box turtles (e.g. redfoots and eastern boxies, or Russians and western boxies). Obviously, the two groups can't hybridize, and behaviorally they might get along. As for diet, box turtles are more omnivorous than tortoises (even redfoots don't eat as much meat as boxies do). But that's okay, as long as they're given different diets. Therefore, I think it comes down to contagion. Boah, thanks for your insightful post on that topic above.
When I water my Gpb's enclosure he will readily eat snails and pill bugs...my Gpp will only eat snails but not insects. I can go outside and observe this everyday if I wanted to stand there and watch them.
Chelydra will eat appreciable vegetation if given the opportunity.
My tortoises eat...grass, weeds, insects, mollusks, cacti, isopods, amphibians, birds, rodents, crayfish, crabs, lagomorphs, countless types of carrion, feces (sweet, sweet feces) from several types of animals, fruit, tree leaves, flowers, eggs, and some will even go for fish if provided pre-killed (like salmon) or alive in a shallow saucer, bones, and stuff I am probably not even remembering right now that is all over the map.
A star and a leopard had a tug of war with a weakened cicada the other day.
Recent kills included a nest of bunnies I had planned to save. That was a team effort by a female sulcata and phayrei.
I think I have some photos of what I could capture after I saw several of my tortoises pin and kill an adult rabbit that got in the wrong place in their yard and did not see the first attacker sneak up. They are on my phone, so I will have to transfer them. They left one leg behind by the time they were finished.
"Don't kid yourself, Jimmy. If a [tortoise] ever got the chance, he'd eat you and everyone you care about!"
I have no doubt that I would have my fingers and face eaten off if I ever lost consciousness for enough time while in the tortoise yard.
Here is a combo made from the shot of those who ate the bunny after a few of them killed it and the hind leg. Unfortunately, the leg shot was out of focus, but I took it with a cell phone from my deck. My phone camera is great for macro shots, but is poor (or I am poor with it) for shots at distance unless I get lucky. Still, you can make up the rabbit leg. I am not sure if it was abandoned on purpose or if one of the animal's plastrons covered it by accident after the limb was severed in the frenzy.
The killing was mainly achieved by the denticulata and the pardalis x sulcata hybrid, with the latter being the first attacker. The carbonaria, gigantea, and smaller denticulata came in to seize the post-kill opportunity from where they had been eating greenery in other portions of the yard just prior (their sense of smell is keen; the Aldabra crossed nearly the whole of the yard at high speed once it smelled the kill).
I think of the use of the large swine in Hannibal and see some similar manner of potential utility in tortoises.
Greg's Tuff also hunts snails.
up = out
My tortoises eat...grass, weeds, insects, mollusks, cacti, isopods, amphibians, birds, rodents, crayfish, crabs, lagomorphs, countless types of carrion, feces (sweet, sweet feces) from several types of animals, fruit, tree leaves, flowers, eggs, and some will even go for fish if provided pre-killed (like salmon) or alive in a shallow saucer, bones, and stuff I am probably not even remembering right now that is all over the map.
A star and a leopard had a tug of war with a weakened cicada the other day.
Recent kills included a nest of bunnies I had planned to save. That was a team effort by a female sulcata and phayrei.
I think I have some photos of what I could capture after I saw several of my tortoises pin and kill an adult rabbit that got in the wrong place in their yard and did not see the first attacker sneak up. They are on my phone, so I will have to transfer them. They left one leg behind by the time they were finished.
"Don't kid yourself, Jimmy. If a [tortoise] ever got the chance, he'd eat you and everyone you care about!"
I have no doubt that I would have my fingers and face eaten off if I ever lost consciousness for enough time while in the tortoise yard.
Here is a combo made from the shot of those who ate the bunny after a few of them killed it and the hind leg. Unfortunately, the leg shot was out of focus, but I took it with a cell phone from my deck. My phone camera is great for macro shots, but is poor (or I am poor with it) for shots at distance unless I get lucky. Still, you can make up the rabbit leg. I am not sure if it was abandoned on purpose or if one of the animal's plastrons covered it by accident after the limb was severed in the frenzy.
The killing was mainly achieved by the denticulata and the pardalis x sulcata hybrid, with the latter being the first attacker. The carbonaria, gigantea, and smaller denticulata came in to seize the post-kill opportunity from where they had been eating greenery in other portions of the yard just prior (their sense of smell is keen; the Aldabra crossed nearly the whole of the yard at high speed once it smelled the kill).
I think of the use of the large swine in Hannibal and see some similar manner of potential utility in tortoises.
jtrux said:
Greg's Tuff also hunts snails.
up = out
By the way, smaller box turtles wander in and out of my yard where I live. We have three-toed primarily here and some Eastern boxies as well. There are some ornate boxies farther to the West, but I have only seen them out that way in this state. None in my exact area. Natural intergrades, too. I have not experienced any problems with these visitors, but it should be noted that I do not put them together on purpose and I have a prophylactic treatment program I put my tortoises through a couple times a year just as a matter of personal practice.
Tortoises and iguanas are considered the only truly herbivorous reptiles, but it is true that both will eat meat from time to time. I have long said that the occasional slug or snail is good for a tortoise - particularly snails, since the shell is a good source of calcium. In addition, wild tortoises (like box turtles) may also eat carrion, scavenging the carcasses of large animals like deer, antelope, or cattle.
Again, this is true of many herbivores. I've seen footage of horses and deer eating birds, and of hippos eating carrion. However, such items are not the mainstay of these animals' diet. These animals are adapted primarily for eating vegetation, and any meat they eat is merely supplementation, mostly of protein.
The report of your tortoises cornering and eating a rabbit is very interesting. I have certainly not heard of that before. Again, it's normal for free-ranging tortoises to eat some animal matter. However, if they eat it too frequently, it can be unhealthy for them because it can be hard on their kidneys, leading to the build up of uric acid crystals in their kidneys or joints (gout). This is in contrast to box turtles, who have a much greater capacity than tortoises for ingesting meat and excreting nitrogenous waste. Indeed, their living in moist environments allows them to drink a lot and excrete ammonia and urea diluted in relatively large volumes of water. This is in contrast to most tortoises, who drink little and excrete uric acid concentrated in small volumes of water. Forest tortoises like redfoots also excrete dilute ammonia and urea, and indeed they do need more meat in their diet than other tortoises, but it's probably still not as much as boxies require.
Again, very interesting. BTW - Do you mean you find intergrades of three-toed and Carolina box turtles, or hybrids of eastern and western box turtles?
Again, this is true of many herbivores. I've seen footage of horses and deer eating birds, and of hippos eating carrion. However, such items are not the mainstay of these animals' diet. These animals are adapted primarily for eating vegetation, and any meat they eat is merely supplementation, mostly of protein.
The report of your tortoises cornering and eating a rabbit is very interesting. I have certainly not heard of that before. Again, it's normal for free-ranging tortoises to eat some animal matter. However, if they eat it too frequently, it can be unhealthy for them because it can be hard on their kidneys, leading to the build up of uric acid crystals in their kidneys or joints (gout). This is in contrast to box turtles, who have a much greater capacity than tortoises for ingesting meat and excreting nitrogenous waste. Indeed, their living in moist environments allows them to drink a lot and excrete ammonia and urea diluted in relatively large volumes of water. This is in contrast to most tortoises, who drink little and excrete uric acid concentrated in small volumes of water. Forest tortoises like redfoots also excrete dilute ammonia and urea, and indeed they do need more meat in their diet than other tortoises, but it's probably still not as much as boxies require.
Baoh said:
Again, very interesting. BTW - Do you mean you find intergrades of three-toed and Carolina box turtles, or hybrids of eastern and western box turtles?
I have not had any instances of organ issues or protein metabolism issues.
I have heard of sulcatas attacking rabbits, doves, and other creatures before. I have even heard of large sulcatas running off coyotes, which I can believe based on what I see of mine and their responses to dogs that are not mine that come up to the fence or visit from across the street if I have opened the gate to their yard (they rush at the intruders and this freaks the dogs right out). They are used to my dogs, though.
If they are hydrated, eating plant material for pH balance and fiber, and at an acceptable temperature, I have great doubts that they will have any issues from protein consumption, although it will boost their rate of lean mass accrual like it does for pretty much all animals in a growth period. I have never seen any study examining head-to-head capacity for protein consumption and digestion between box turtles and tortoises, but that would be interesting to investigate.
Above, I mean intergrades of three-toed and Eastern box turtles. They are not rare here. I see some in my neighborhood and more at my place of work which is set on preserved land.
Here is one of the male three-toed boxies I saved from a near-death service road splattering at work. Handsome fellow.
I have heard of sulcatas attacking rabbits, doves, and other creatures before. I have even heard of large sulcatas running off coyotes, which I can believe based on what I see of mine and their responses to dogs that are not mine that come up to the fence or visit from across the street if I have opened the gate to their yard (they rush at the intruders and this freaks the dogs right out). They are used to my dogs, though.
If they are hydrated, eating plant material for pH balance and fiber, and at an acceptable temperature, I have great doubts that they will have any issues from protein consumption, although it will boost their rate of lean mass accrual like it does for pretty much all animals in a growth period. I have never seen any study examining head-to-head capacity for protein consumption and digestion between box turtles and tortoises, but that would be interesting to investigate.
Above, I mean intergrades of three-toed and Eastern box turtles. They are not rare here. I see some in my neighborhood and more at my place of work which is set on preserved land.
Here is one of the male three-toed boxies I saved from a near-death service road splattering at work. Handsome fellow.
GeoTerraTestudo said:
How about uromasryx don't they almost eat strictly veggies?
Wouldnt they be just as herbivore as a tortoise or iguana?
Baoh, once again, interesting stuff. Attacking rabbits and doves does sound like predation. However, chasing away canids would be for protection, not predation. No doubt, wild sullies in the Sahel have to contend with jackals, cape hunting dogs, and other carnivorans. At their size, adult sulcatas seem pretty well-equipped to deal with them.
Based on Andy Highfield's work, tortoises are not adapted to high-protein diets. Some scavenging is good, but he states that a lot of meat taxes their liver (this might have as much or more to do with fat than protein). Tortoises and even boxies that eat lots of meat seem to get liver damage, kidney stones, and even skeletal deformation. Your guys do look good, so either they're not eating that much, or else there's a huge difference between live prey and canned meat.
Yes, I should have included Uromastyx, too. So that makes tortoises, iguanas, and Uromastyx as the only herbivorous reptiles. All others are either omnivorous (like boxies, beardies, Tiliqua, etc), or carnivorous (like alligator snappers, monitors, snakes, etc). Most reptiles eat a lot of meat, but not quite all.
Based on Andy Highfield's work, tortoises are not adapted to high-protein diets. Some scavenging is good, but he states that a lot of meat taxes their liver (this might have as much or more to do with fat than protein). Tortoises and even boxies that eat lots of meat seem to get liver damage, kidney stones, and even skeletal deformation. Your guys do look good, so either they're not eating that much, or else there's a huge difference between live prey and canned meat.
Millerlite said:
Yes, I should have included Uromastyx, too. So that makes tortoises, iguanas, and Uromastyx as the only herbivorous reptiles. All others are either omnivorous (like boxies, beardies, Tiliqua, etc), or carnivorous (like alligator snappers, monitors, snakes, etc). Most reptiles eat a lot of meat, but not quite all.
What type of work did Andy Highfield actually do to determine that? I would agree that fat would have a much higher chance of contributing to hepatic impairment than protein (this happens in other reptiles), but I would still like to read the reference. I only need the citation and then I can get it. Does it go by a different name? I just searched for his name as an author for peer reviewed work with "chelonian" and/or "hepatic" and/or "liver" and/or "tortoise" in databases for scientific literature, but nothing was returned.
"Experiments conducted by the author" and heavy reliance on surveys are why pieces such as this
http://www.tortoisetrust.org/articles/dietcons.html
are not published in more reputable settings and are not considered genuine research.
PMID: 9472813 describes a tortoise species we may be familiar with as an omnivore to touch on another part of the discussion.
PMID: 15048627 goes into the histopathology and speculates on the causes as possibly being dehydration and possibly being a high protein diet, but only that (hypothesizing) and for one animal.
PMID: 14511150 is a great study many of us have seen supporting the employment of humidity manipulation and does not indicate induction of a disease state with even 30% protein. If anything, it improves growth (lean mass).
PMID: 22290654 is also interesting, although I would say the growth-age-mortality hypothesis could also involve older WC animals unless that was excluded within (I would have to check and I feel like sleeping a little tonight for some crazy reason).
Anyway, food for thought.
"Experiments conducted by the author" and heavy reliance on surveys are why pieces such as this
http://www.tortoisetrust.org/articles/dietcons.html
are not published in more reputable settings and are not considered genuine research.
PMID: 9472813 describes a tortoise species we may be familiar with as an omnivore to touch on another part of the discussion.
PMID: 15048627 goes into the histopathology and speculates on the causes as possibly being dehydration and possibly being a high protein diet, but only that (hypothesizing) and for one animal.
PMID: 14511150 is a great study many of us have seen supporting the employment of humidity manipulation and does not indicate induction of a disease state with even 30% protein. If anything, it improves growth (lean mass).
PMID: 22290654 is also interesting, although I would say the growth-age-mortality hypothesis could also involve older WC animals unless that was excluded within (I would have to check and I feel like sleeping a little tonight for some crazy reason).
Anyway, food for thought.
Really, much of what I see available is speculation in one direction or the other. I would say that people should simply consider their options and follow whatever they consider to reasonably cover bases for care. As long as the animals do well, it seems fine to me.
And just because this has become a bit of running gag for me....
And just because this has become a bit of running gag for me....
Baoh said:And just because this has become a bit of running gag for me....
You do realize, this counts as bestiality.
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