Torts and the cold weather

[Maggie3fan]

As far as I am concerned this subject has been beat to death in my life. However, a possibly new keeper just pm'd me asking about that same subject, and I realize a new keeper is right to have temperature concerns in a cold state, and a new keeper just might be better off getting more than just my opinion. It's been some time now since Tom has reamed me for anything so I'm gonna set ground rules...NO fb type insults, just teasin mr. T...I just want your personal experience, and (opinions) lol. and yeah, let's see if those of you with money and a buncha torts tortoises can give an opinion and some experience nicely.
I was just asked by a new person about my experience with keeping tortoises in cold weather, and did it bother me emotionally. So y'all know I keep hot weather tortoises in an area where outside time is limited and just how did I do it...so I told him, and I'm not gonna repeat what I said again...Yes I DO believe in keeping hot torts in cold weather provided they are set up like kings and are put outside at every given opportunity.
This is not "like kings" but pretty good.

Mart Knobbins was set up like a king before she was a she...lol here's my tort shed and I have a couple of rooms with tort enclosures in the house...when weather permits I carry all outside and back in a night. Mary puts herself outside in the morning and back in at 7 pm herself
So let's hear those genuine experiences and humble opinions...

 

[TammyJ]

Ok. My genuine experience of keeping warm weather animals while living in a cold climate is Zero. My very humble opinion is that if a person can provide year round correct conditions for the animals regardless of the climate, why not? My stipulation here is that any compromises that may be made because of the owner's inability to provide the proper conditions, will justify anyone saying that warm weather animals should not be kept in a cold climate. There!

 

[TammyJ]

Ok. My genuine experience of keeping warm weather animals while living in a cold climate is Zero. My very humble opinion is that if a person can provide year round correct conditions for the animals regardless of the climate, why not? My stipulation here is that any compromises that may be made because of the owner's inability to provide the proper conditions, will justify anyone saying that warm weather animals should not be kept in a cold climate. There!

See, Tammy??? You said too much yet again. Go plant some yam or something already.

 

[Len B]

I live just southeast of Washington DC and got my first sulcata hatchling in 1996. His name is Walker and weighs over 150 pounds. I also have 3 other younger male sulcatas and they live outside all year round. They each have their own heated house and are separated from each other by barriers. Their houses aren't big walk in buildings, which would cost much more to heat, but replicate a burrow. They have access to the outside 24-7 all year unless very severe weather is predicted. This is Donald who has done very well with the systems I use to keep them safe and happy all year. He turns 4 years old this week and is close to 60 pounds.

 

[wellington]

I totally see no problem keeping tortoises in the colder north. If it was so wrong, then maybe breeders should stop selling them to people that live in the colder areas!
Besides, many so called warm states, aren't so warm 24/7 365 days a year, which is still not the same as the tortoise comes from.
I believe if you have a good size area to give them and can afford to do it, go for it.
Many sulcata lives with a northern very snowy Michigan long time inactive now member that is very well taken care of.
I'd love to know, if the breeders that have sold many sulcata hatchlings, have ever denied selling to someone that lives in the colder states because they, themselves, don't recommend it.

 

[Tom]

This just going to devolve into the same argument it always does...

I totally see no problem keeping tortoises in the colder north.

That's because you've never housed giants in the frozen north and don't understand the difficulties. How many people come here with babies and then two or three years later they come back posting to re-home their sulcata because NOW they get it. Smaller tortoises in the frozen north are fine because they can be housed reasonably well in an indoor space of one sort or another, like yours are, but there is no practical way to house giants. Len gets away with it somehow, but most people don't. I'm happy for Len, and he's figured out how to make it work somehow, but most people don't. I love Maggie, but she's a perfect example of the norm. Everyone here loved Bob, me included. I cried when I read the he died and how he died. I don't want that to happen to anyone else or any other tortoises. Small spaces will eventually kill giants most of the time. Many sulcatas in the frozen north just don't seem to grow at all. How many tiny 5-10 year old sulcatas have we seen here? Let's look at the over all numbers. Let's not look at one smart, talented, experienced guy that has somehow gotten away with something that most people don't get away with. Len is a great guy, but a rare case. He's the exception, not the rule.

If it was so wrong, then maybe breeders should stop selling them to people that live in the colder areas!

I'd love to know, if the breeders that have sold many sulcata hatchlings, have ever denied selling to someone that lives in the colder states because they, themselves, don't recommend it.

I have stopped. I don't sell sulcatas any more. I did deny sales to some people. Many people for many reasons. When I did sell them to people in colder climates, I made sure they knew what they were getting into and what their plans for the future would be. They sometimes had the wrong time frames in mind, or the wrong ideas about how to house them. If they were willing to address the elephant, or the giant sulcata, in the room, I wouldn't sell. They would then just buy it somewhere else and learn the hard way, with the tortoise paying the price for their ignorance and stubbornness.

Besides, many so called warm states, aren't so warm 24/7 365 days a year, which is still not the same as the tortoise comes from.

This is a fair point, and I grapple with it myself during every cold spell in winter. But then the cold spell ends, and the tortoises are out grazing on weeds and wild grasses in the sun three days later. Cooped up for a week now and then because of a winter storm and inclement weather is no problem. In my area, they aren't even cooped up. They still come out and walk around on 60 degree cloudy days, they just go back into the warm boxes after getting their GI tracts moving and grazing on some weeds and grasses. There is not one winter day where I don't open their boxes for exercise. Is 60 degrees and cloudy for a few days in a row good for them? Heck no. But anyone should be able to see that a few days of cool weather in an otherwise warm sunny climate, is a whole different thing than months of below freezing temps and snow on the ground. I think many people reading and arguing just haven't spent enough time in different climates to fully understand how this affects a tropical tortoise species.

I believe if you have a good size area to give them and can afford to do it, go for it.

What do you consider "a good size area" for a 100+ pound tropical tortoise? I think 1000 square feet, 50 x 50 feet, should be the bare minimum, and that is a tiny area. To do this, a person would need a heated, insulated building with floor heat built in and a huge, reliable generator for power outages. I've never seen this. Not once. My sulcatas had 8000 sq. ft. and I thought that was much too small. A shed in the back yard is not enough room to be cooped up in for months at a time, and walking in the snow is not something I would ever allow or recommend for a tropical species of reptile.

...I'm gonna set ground rules...NO fb type insults, just teasin mr. T...I just want your personal experience, and (opinions) lol...

I don't do FB, so I don't have any idea what a FB type of insult looks like. I will just refrain from any and all insults, and instead share my thoughts and personal experiences on the subject matter.

This info is not intended to hurt someone's feelings or start arguments. It is intended to help new people make informed decisions and avoid the mistakes of the people before them. It is intended to save tortoises from suffering through miserable short lives. There are some people who shouldn't keep some animals in some areas. Plain and simple. If you live in a NY high-rise, keeping a cow in your apartment just isn't the right thing to do. If you live in the AZ desert, keeping tropical tortoise species that needs warm, not hot, temperatures and constant high humidity, is not going to work well. If you live on the CA coast with a beautiful few of the ocean, a DT is not going to fare well in your tiny yard. I'd love to have elongoata, RFs, manouria, and maybe even Aldabras, but its just too hot and dry here, so I stick to species that do well with hot and dry conditions, and do what I can to help them cope with the extremes. My stars, for example, get misters and sprinklers in the summer, heat lamps in winter, and warm humid shelters all year round. They like it hot, and they tolerate dry conditions just fine, with the enclosures that I've built and planted for them. A RF would be miserable here in summer when its 106 and 8% humidity, even with the sprinklers and such, so I don't keep RFs here, even though they are a fantastic species. If I lived in Georgia, I would keep them, and just house them indoors during the cold winter spells. If RFs got 150+ pounds and 3+ feet long, I would NOT house them in GA. Not without that giant heated warehouse I previously spoke of. My point is: There is no practical way to house giant tropical tortoises in frozen winter climates, and a couple of people who manage to get away with it is not proof that it works, or a reason to endorse it.

 

[NigelT]

I probably shouldn't wade in here so feel free to delete my post.

My grandad found a (we now know thanks to here) Greek tortoise back back in the 1950's in an overgrown garden in the east of the UK that no-one in the surrounding houses claimed to know who it belonged to.

He took that Tortoise home not knowing how to care for it and roll on 2023 he has passed away and I know have the same tortoise. Now my grandad told me tales of how one year he though it had escaped only to seeing a tyre moving in the spring and low and behold Fred was there. For many many years he let the tortoise do its thing, digging to hibernate, it occasionally escaped but the neighbours always brought Fred back. Years roll by and he fortifies the edges of the garden to stop Fred the escape artist escaping and slabbing the entire back garden Fred got upgraded to a single cardboard box with straw in for his (we now know her) hibernation in the wooden shed.

30 years or so rolled past like that till Fred got a plastic box with straw in to sleep over the winter.

Fed on lettuce, cucumbers and dandelions that tort has survived all this time in the UK.

Now we have the internet and have been reading much, Fred now gets a varied diet and a regular bath which my Nan god bless her thinks we are absolute lunatics to be doing 🤣.

With her first hibernation coming up I have a fridge being delivered tomorrow for her slumber, which I haven't told my nan yet but I guarantee you she will be telling me off. Telling me how I'm wasting my money and how I should stay off the internet, god bless her.

My only point being atleast in the UK, these things seem to be far hardier than I keep reading on forums and websites.

Edit: I should add Nan refused to put a water bowl out for Fred because "the daft thing always climbed in the bowl" haha, well now we know why she climbed in the bowl..

 

[wellington]

I probably shouldn't wade in here so feel free to delete my post.

My grandad found a (we now know thanks to here) Greek tortoise back back in the 1950's in an overgrown garden in the east of the UK that no-one in the surrounding houses claimed to know who it belonged to.

He took that Tortoise home not knowing how to care for it and roll on 2023 he has passed away and I know have the same tortoise. Now my grandad told me tales of how one year he though it had escaped only to seeing a tyre moving in the spring and low and behold Fred was there. For many many years he let the tortoise do its thing, digging to hibernate, it occasionally escaped but the neighbours always brought Fred back. Years roll by and he fortifies the edges of the garden to stop Fred the escape artist escaping and slabbing the entire back garden Fred got upgraded to a single cardboard box with straw in for his (we now know her) hibernation in the wooden shed.

30 years or so rolled past like that till Fred got a plastic box with straw in to sleep over the winter.

Fed on lettuce, cucumbers and dandelions that tort has survived all this time in the UK.

Now we have the internet and have been reading much, Fred now gets a varied diet and a regular bath which my Nan god bless her thinks we are absolute lunatics to be doing 🤣.

With her first hibernation coming up I have a fridge being delivered tomorrow for her slumber, which I haven't told my nan yet but I guarantee you she will be telling me off. Telling me how I'm wasting my money and how I should stay off the internet, god bless her.

My only point being atleast in the UK, these things seem to be far hardier than I keep reading on forums and websites.

Edit: I should add Nan refused to put a water bowl out for Fred because "the daft thing always climbed in the bowl" haha, well now we know why she climbed in the bowl..

Nice story, but I'm thinking it's not a giant tortoise like the sulcata or larger, but one of the Mediterranean species, which really isn't of much concern in the cold states/areas.

 

[Megatron's Mom]

I love your story 💓
I would love to be there just to hear your Nan when she finds out the new plan.

 

[Tom]

I probably shouldn't wade in here so feel free to delete my post.

My grandad found a (we now know thanks to here) Greek tortoise back back in the 1950's in an overgrown garden in the east of the UK that no-one in the surrounding houses claimed to know who it belonged to.

He took that Tortoise home not knowing how to care for it and roll on 2023 he has passed away and I know have the same tortoise. Now my grandad told me tales of how one year he though it had escaped only to seeing a tyre moving in the spring and low and behold Fred was there. For many many years he let the tortoise do its thing, digging to hibernate, it occasionally escaped but the neighbours always brought Fred back. Years roll by and he fortifies the edges of the garden to stop Fred the escape artist escaping and slabbing the entire back garden Fred got upgraded to a single cardboard box with straw in for his (we now know her) hibernation in the wooden shed.

30 years or so rolled past like that till Fred got a plastic box with straw in to sleep over the winter.

Fed on lettuce, cucumbers and dandelions that tort has survived all this time in the UK.

Now we have the internet and have been reading much, Fred now gets a varied diet and a regular bath which my Nan god bless her thinks we are absolute lunatics to be doing 🤣.

With her first hibernation coming up I have a fridge being delivered tomorrow for her slumber, which I haven't told my nan yet but I guarantee you she will be telling me off. Telling me how I'm wasting my money and how I should stay off the internet, god bless her.

My only point being atleast in the UK, these things seem to be far hardier than I keep reading on forums and websites.

Edit: I should add Nan refused to put a water bowl out for Fred because "the daft thing always climbed in the bowl" haha, well now we know why she climbed in the bowl..

It is amazing how much some of them seem to be able to survive, but think about this: How many tortoises did not survive this same sort of treatment over this same time frame.

 

[ryan57]

I live just southeast of Washington DC and got my first sulcata hatchling in 1996. His name is Walker and weighs over 150 pounds. I also have 3 other younger male sulcatas and they live outside all year round. They each have their own heated house and are separated from each other by barriers. Their houses aren't big walk in buildings, which would cost much more to heat, but replicate a burrow. They have access to the outside 24-7 all year unless very severe weather is predicted. View attachment 359720This is Donald who has done very well with the systems I use to keep them safe and happy all year. He turns 4 years old this week and is close to 60 pounds.

Beautiful! Len, I'm in southern PA and my sulcata is 1yr 7mo and 17.5lbs. Grass stays green here somehow even in winter. Grows ridiculous in the summer. Stump chooses to go out only when it's sunny. The other day it was in the low 60's and he went out. His carapace did not drop below 83 degrees in the sun but he is darker than most sulcatas I've seen. Don't know if it will lighten up but even if it does they seem to be much, much more stable constant temperature once they have some weight. My little one will be indoors permanently after this weekend or so as it's supposed to be 81deg on Saturday in Dillsburg PA. I'm wondering why people haven't leveraged conservatories and large greenhouses much more when in colder climates north of here. I have a small 3x13 greenhouse which is usually 25 degrees above the temperature outside without heating. That means that 55-60 degree days are a "go" which means a bunch of days in late fall and early spring.

 

[Maggie3fan]

Beautiful! Len, I'm in southern PA and my sulcata is 1yr 7mo and 17.5lbs. Grass stays green here somehow even in winter. Grows ridiculous in the summer. Stump chooses to go out only when it's sunny. The other day it was in the low 60's and he went out. His carapace did not drop below 83 degrees in the sun but he is darker than most sulcatas I've seen. Don't know if it will lighten up but even if it does they seem to be much, much more stable constant temperature once they have some weight. My little one will be indoors permanently after this weekend or so as it's supposed to be 81deg on Saturday in Dillsburg PA. I'm wondering why people haven't leveraged conservatories and large greenhouses much more when in colder climates north of here. I have a small 3x13 greenhouse which is usually 25 degrees above the temperature outside without heating. That means that 55-60 degree days are a "go" which means a bunch of days in late fall and early spring.

View attachment 362742

he's beautiful!

 

[Levi the Leopard]

My leopard tortoise, Levi will be 12 next spring. I raised him in SoCal the first 2 years of his life. The last 9 and half years we've been in Southern Oregon. That's the experience I have to speak on the matter.

Levi lives outside, full time, all year long. He has a fully insulated, heated tortoise house and my entire backyard as his enclosure. The heated house is a copy of Tom's 4x4 design. The mini oil filled radiator is plugged into a thermostat set to 80F in the summer and 86F (sometimes higher) in the winter. I lined the floor with vinyl flooring, covered in dirt that I routinely mist down. The digital thermometer/hydrometer combo records 24hr highs/lows so I can monitor his conditions. He also has a light bulb to help me regulate his day/night cycle during the colder weather when I feed him inside his house.





From late spring, through summer and into early/mid fall, this set up is just fine. He comes out every morning shortly after I open his door. The south facing yard has rocks placed in specific spots to create warm basking areas and he uses them. He grazes all day long on the variety of grasses and weeds that make up the lawn. I sowed this lawn just for him when we moved here. It's been a while since I measured the yard but if I remember correctly, it's approximately an 80'x30' L shaped yard and he uses every inch of it. He has plants and benches he likes to rest under and he eagerly defends his space from intruders, aka people, that enter his territory. Every night he puts himself to bed in the warm house before I close and lock his door.
For safety, our dog has the front yard, the turtle has the backyard. The gate has a 2x10's secured across the bottom between the posts so that a gate left open is never an escape risk. If this was his life all year long, I'd say it was a pretty good one.





Unfortunately, our winters do get cold. We do get some snow. His winter housing is not ideal during this time and I know that. He will spend most of November-January cooped up in his heated house. Every day I open his door and he sits in the doorway, looking out, evaluating the weather. Somedays it's sunny enough he can venture out for a little bit. Other days it's too cloudy/rainy/snowy and he turns around to hunker down inside. One those days, I feed him on a terra cotta saucer inside his house since he can't come out to graze. Occasionally he comes inside the human house and gets to walk around in my reptile room/office. Occasionally I take him places where he can walk around and stretch his legs in a warm, indoor space.




100% he'd rather have it hot all day everyday.
100% I know my winter housing is less than ideal.
100% I'm convinced I will not get another tortoise living here and advocate on why this species is too difficult for most keepers in this area.
Let's be honest, I keep him despite living in southern Oregon because I LIKE HIM and want him. Is it selfish, sure. I could ship him off to someone in AZ, TX, FL, etc. and he'd be better off. But I don't feel like the winter housing here is bad enough to warrant not having him. My goal is to have a large 8x12 heated shed and increase his warm winter space. That will be better, but still not best and I don't have that yet.

So, what's my opinion on the matter? It's a varying answer. You need to weigh the pros and cons. Different tortoises will have different pros/cons and different people want different things. What I view as a pro you might view as a con.

In my case with keeping Levi
Pros:
I've had him since he was a baby
My kids have grown up with him and we all have emotional attachments to him
3 quarters of the year he is a maintenance free pet and lives a good life
He's been used as an educational ambassador in my animal program for many years and will continue to be one for many more

Cons:
1 quarter of the year he needs a little bit more work (daily feedings, regular soaks) and doesn't have as much space as he should

My pros outweigh my cons. So I keep him.

 

[sandwill]

I totally get where you're coming from – it's a common concern, especially for new tortoise keepers in colder states. Keeping hot weather tortoises in colder climates can be a bit challenging, but it's definitely doable with the right setup and care.

In my experience, I've found that providing a warm and well-insulated enclosure is crucial. I use heat lamps and heating pads to create a cozy environment. Also, outdoor time is essential whenever the weather allows. I make sure my tortoises get plenty of sunlight and fresh air, even if it means supervising them closely during their outdoor adventures.