Urate issues...still

[Skip K]

Still dealing with urate issues. Have 3 baby Sulcatas and one or more keeps having gritty urates ( going to implement procedures to narrow down if it’s one particular tort). Had them about a month now. They are soaked daily...substrate is moist for humidity... and temps are 100 under basking light and low 80’s in the hide. UVB bulb gives a reading of about 90 at tort level. Diet...mostly Spring mix and collard greens with dandelion greens and flowers ( no stems) now that they are growing in the yard. I spray water on the greens frequently to keep them wet. I add watered, mashed Zoomed grassland diet twice a week to the greens. All are very active, look great in every aspect, eat well and are gaining weight slow but steady. I’ve never seen any of them drink from the shallow water dish. I use only spring water for all needs. I’m not sure if the minerals in spring water are an issue...but I’m at wits end dealing/worrying with this issue. One baby passed a stone less than 10 hours after we had received it...so I don’t know their conditions before shipping.

 

[KarenSoCal]

Urates are a byproduct when tortoises process proteins.

Some greens are rather high in protein. Spinach, found in the spring mix, is one of them. Collard greens are another.

Maybe, as babies, one of them is having some difficulty with protein. You could try cutting those 2 items for a while and see if it helps. Just pick the spinach out of the spring mix.

I just googled high protein veggies. You get some different results depending on which list you look at, but maybe it will help you.

Endive and escarole are very good greens, along with radicchio.

 

[Skip K]

Thank, Karen. I just started removing spinach because of high oxalates...and I get spring mix ( there are different types with different greens) and look for spring mixes with more tort friendly greens mixes. I’ve replaced my more open hide with a CHE going thru an opening in the top with a more enclosed one with the CHE heating the top of the hide roof...hoping it will radiate heat inside while not baking them directly as before but keeping the humidity levels good. Temps are a worry cause my temp gun only reads surfaces and not ambient air so I’ve ordered a thermometer/hygrometer to monitor the hide.

 

[KarenSoCal]

It sounds like your babies are well hydrated, so I doubt that's the problem.

I've been trying to come up with an alternative cause, thus the protein idea. But now I just don't know.

I can't imagine a tiny hatchling passing a stone! Poor baby!

I'm going to tag other members who have lots more experience than me.
@Tom
@Yvonne G
Any ideas here?

 

[Skip K]

Ive implemented a few changes. I can’t do anything about the torts coming to us with already with urate issues but ramped up the only thing left I can do. I don’t feel comfortable with damp ( more than what I was already doing) substrates but be after reading some other posts about problems with tort tables and humidity...I’m doing more. The tort hide was maybe not as humid as it should be and it had an opening at one end for the CHE. Maybe baking the torts at night. The ground temps were in the low 80’s under it but they were still under the CHE. I have increased the substrate moisture in the enclosure and hide and have changed the hide to one that will hold humidity more. The CHE now sits above the hide...heating the hide itself which warms up the inside of the hide. Another change...I had a very shallow water bowl in the enclosure but never saw them climb in and drink from it. So I sunk the water dish in the substrate to ground level...and saw two of the babies actually drink from it for the first time. My main concern is respiratory issues...but something had to change.
Thanks for your reply, Karen

 

[Maggie3fan]

Well...I wasn't tagged for this post...but I will reply anyhow...Bob was a 125 lb male Sulcata...I will omit the oft-repeated details, but all requirements were met, and he had a pool for swimming, and a 1 gallon water dish for drinking at night. He visibly drank water daily...for years... the first photo is Bob's stone...why??? he was very well hydrated, good diet and lived outside mostly...No reason for Bob to have gotten that big of a stone. It weighs almost 2 lbs...he died from that stone and bad surgery...the 'exotic' Vet who caused Bob to die had his 'exotic' license suspended for 3 years and he had to take those courses over again...Bob died 5 years ago...
current...I have had Big Sam since he was a yearling... I think he's 5 or 6 now...almost 50 lbs. I am so concerned about not causing another tortoise to die...I have done everything I can think of to keep my 2 Sulcata from dying he way Bob did...and after all my trouble...here is a photo I took of urates in a puddle of goop this morning...need I find another home for him in the South? What am I not doing? What am I doing wrong? With all this house isolation and stress involved in our lives right now...I am very stressed over this...am I slowly killing another tortoise? Most questions are rhetorical...but I am saying I don't know what I am not doing right...
#Skip K I realize my long discourse does not help you in any way...but my tortoises are years old, not months and yet we have the same problem...stop worrying about respiratory issues, take the CHE away from
the hide, most torts prefer to sleep colder...I also fed Spring Mix and did take out the spinach...still have the problem...you know you should separate your babies don't you? babies bully each other physically and mentally...so watch for eating and isolation problems carefully...you'll get better advice than mine from the experts soon... stay here and keep asking questions...

 

[Tom]

Urates form when proteins are digested and there is not enough water to pass the by-prodcuts. The more protein and the less water, the more gritty the urates become.

There are proteins in the plants we feed our tortoises. Daily soaking should keep the tortoises well hydrated, but in an open topped enclosure under a MVB, it will still dry them out far too much, which is exactly what you are seeing. The MVB is also going to cause them to pyramid, and you need to get rid of it ASAP.

I don't know how long you've had these babies, but after a month or two of daily soaks and a warm humid enclosure, all the urates should have passed.

They do not get respiratory issues in 80+% humidity in warm closed chambers. I've raised hundreds of babies of several different species in these conditions, and ZERO signs of RI ever. Not even a hint of it. Have the CHE set on a thermostat set to 80, and you won't have a respiratory issue. Letting the basking bulb warm ambient in the chamber up to around 90 every day, will also prevent any RI. Also understand that these conditions are NATURAL for sulcatas. They have a 3-4 month monsoon season over there where conditions are like New Orleans in summer. 100+degree temps every day with soup like 100% humidity. Puddles and marshes form, and there is green growing food every where. Misinformed breeders will exclaim: "They live in a desert! Who soaks them every day in nature???!!!" This is a clear indicator of ignorance. We've all been taught this "desert tortoise" non-sense for the last 30+ years, but some of us still haven't figured out that it was and is wrong.

 

[Skip K]

Maggie...I’m sorry for your loss. It’s heartbreaking to lose such a magnificent animal. I know your stress all too well. I’ve raised baby leopards and redfoots and had no issues like what I’m dealing with now. Their husbandry was not ideal ( according to the newest ever changing info)....but they are doing splendidly.

 

[Skip K]

Thanks Tom...I don’t use a MVB ( never found them to be too durable) but instead use a normal basking bulb in tandem with a task specific UVB light side by side. Under the basking bulb...ground temp is 100. UVB at tort level is 90 as compared to a reading of 230 on a sunny day outside). I am going to pick up a sheet of plexiglass or acrylic to form a cover over most of the table for humidity. Once the temps warm up around here...they will get significant time in an outdoor inclosure. Currently in the works is a new outdoor enclosure...not only designed for our redfoots and leopard...but with a section for the babies...which presents its own set of challenges

 

[Tom]

Thanks Tom...I don’t use a MVB ( never found them to be too durable) but instead use a normal basking bulb in tandem with a task specific UVB light side by side. Under the basking bulb...ground temp is 100. UVB at tort level is 90 as compared to a reading of 230 on a sunny day outside). I am going to pick up a sheet of plexiglass or acrylic to form a cover over most of the table for humidity. Once the temps warm up around here...they will get significant time in an outdoor inclosure. Currently in the works is a new outdoor enclosure...not only designed for our redfoots and leopard...but with a section for the babies...which presents its own set of challenges

That all sounds good.

Be cautious about too much outside time for babies. Side by side comparisons clearly show that too much time outside isn't good for them, regardless of climate and current weather. My general rule of thumb is one hour of outside time per inch of tortoise a few times per week. Once they are 5-6 inches, I'll leave them outside in their enclosures all day, weather permitting. As babies, they do best when kept mostly inside with short excursions to the great outdoors in their outdoor enclosures.

 

[Skip K]

Tom, I appreciate your time on these issues.. A few more questions. What is your opinion on commercial diets? I prefer Zoomed Grassland for the babies and our 7 year old Leopard and Zoomed Forest Diet for our Redfoots...making about 20% of their diet...the rest being greens and what they can forage naturally outside. With the changes I’ve made...and your welcome suggestions...it will take a while to see any results..so would you recommend no commercial diet at all for this period? I can dust greens with herptivite and calcium...but prefer my animals get their vits and minerals from their diet. Supplements worry me with the likelihood of incorrect dosing. The Zoomed diet is supposedly low protein but I just don’t know. Again...I appreciate your input.

 

[Yvonne G]

I like to use the mfg'd tortoise foods as a supplement, not a staple.

 

[Tom]

Tom, I appreciate your time on these issues.. A few more questions. What is your opinion on commercial diets? I prefer Zoomed Grassland for the babies and our 7 year old Leopard and Zoomed Forest Diet for our Redfoots...making about 20% of their diet...the rest being greens and what they can forage naturally outside. With the changes I’ve made...and your welcome suggestions...it will take a while to see any results..so would you recommend no commercial diet at all for this period? I can dust greens with herptivite and calcium...but prefer my animals get their vits and minerals from their diet. Supplements worry me with the likelihood of incorrect dosing. The Zoomed diet is supposedly low protein but I just don’t know. Again...I appreciate your input.

I'm happy to share my thoughts on these questions, but be aware that were have firmly moved into the realm of opinions, and personal preferences.

I like the ZooMed pellets and both types of Mazuri as a way to add supplemental variety, nutrients, and fiber to a tortoises diet. I think all are beneficial.

20% ZooMed? I'd be more comfortable with 10%, and the other 90% being a wide variety of weeds, leaves, flowers and succulents, BUT, I don't think making the ZooMed Grassland or Forest tortoise diet 50% of the total intake would do any harm. Its good stuff with a lot of "natural" ingredients. The grassland is very low in protein, so I see no need to suspend its use. I suspect your urate issue is more dryness related, and less diet related.

I too prefer to minimize my use of powdered supplements. I use them, but try to keep it to a minimum. Some situations would require it more than others.

 

[KarenSoCal]

Well...I wasn't tagged for this post...but I will reply anyhow...Bob was a 125 lb male Sulcata...I will omit the oft-repeated details, but all requirements were met, and he had a pool for swimming, and a 1 gallon water dish for drinking at night. He visibly drank water daily...for years... the first photo is Bob's stone...why??? he was very well hydrated, good diet and lived outside mostly...No reason for Bob to have gotten that big of a stone. It weighs almost 2 lbs...he died from that stone and bad surgery...the 'exotic' Vet who caused Bob to die had his 'exotic' license suspended for 3 years and he had to take those courses over again...Bob died 5 years ago...
current...I have had Big Sam since he was a yearling... I think he's 5 or 6 now...almost 50 lbs. I am so concerned about not causing another tortoise to die...I have done everything I can think of to keep my 2 Sulcata from dying he way Bob did...and after all my trouble...here is a photo I took of urates in a puddle of goop this morning...need I find another home for him in the South? What am I not doing? What am I doing wrong? With all this house isolation and stress involved in our lives right now...I am very stressed over this...am I slowly killing another tortoise? Most questions are rhetorical...but I am saying I don't know what I am not doing right...
#Skip K I realize my long discourse does not help you in any way...but my tortoises are years old, not months and yet we have the same problem...stop worrying about respiratory issues, take the CHE away from
the hide, most torts prefer to sleep colder...I also fed Spring Mix and did take out the spinach...still have the problem...you know you should separate your babies don't you? babies bully each other physically and mentally...so watch for eating and isolation problems carefully...you'll get better advice than mine from the experts soon... stay here and keep asking questions...
View attachment 289766View attachment 289771

Maggie, your input is always welcome!

 

[Maggie3fan]

Maggie, your input is always welcome!

heck...you know that I must have a sarcastic comment now and then....don't pay me no never mind...