UVB burns?

[Tortugatron]

Hi everyone. I've been researching the best UVB to get and I was surprised to come across some info on the forums stating that certain styles of bulbs can burn the 's eyes. Does anyone have direct experience and info about this? I've heard a lot of differing accounts. What is the best style to use in your experience? I have two desert tortoises and two sulcatas, all about a year old and 3 inches long. I'm redoing their enclosure and want to know what to buy. Thanks!

 

[Tom]

First, you said "their enclosure" as if its just one. That would be bad. Species should never be mixed, and tortoises should not be housed in pairs. In particular, sulcatas and DTs have very different environmental needs and the diets are different too. They are not behaviorally compatible either.

Now about the lighting:
1. Coil types: SOME of those coil type cfl bulbs burn reptile eyes. There is no way to predict which ones will and which ones won't, so most of us just recommend using something else that isn't so risky. They are also ineffective as UV sources anyway, so why bother?
2. Mercury Vapor bulbs: Heat, light and decent UV all in one. Kind of like the sun. These work, but they get too hot for some applications. I can't use them in my closed chambers because they run too hot. In an open table, which is no good for small sulcatas, MVBs can work fine.
3. Regular florescent UV tubes (strip lights): These can work. They don't overheat closed chambers, but they must be mounted about 10" away from the tortoises to get much UV benefit from them. Only use the 10.0 versions, as almost no UV comes out of the 5.0 models.
4. HO type florescent units. These produce A LOT of the correct wavelength of UVB. The must be mounted at the correct distance or they could be too intense. I use single Arcadia 12% bulbs in a reflector hood and at a distance of 20" they make as much UV as the summer mid day sun. I only run them for about 4-5 hours mid day on a timer.

Having said all of that, YOU don't need artificial UV. You live in Riverside! You have good tortoise weather year round. I'm up in Santa Clarita and our weather is very similar. My Dad lives out your way. We had 90 degree days in January and February this year. They can go a few weeks in winter with no UV at all, as long as they get sun two or three times a week the rest of the year.

Does this help? Please ask lots more questions if needed.

 

[Tortugatron]

First, you said "their enclosure" as if its just one. That would be bad. Species should never be mixed, and tortoises should not be housed in pairs. In particular, sulcatas and DTs have very different environmental needs and the diets are different too. They are not behaviorally compatible either.

Now about the lighting:
1. Coil types: SOME of those coil type cfl bulbs burn reptile eyes. There is no way to predict which ones will and which ones won't, so most of us just recommend using something else that isn't so risky. They are also ineffective as UV sources anyway, so why bother?
2. Mercury Vapor bulbs: Heat, light and decent UV all in one. Kind of like the sun. These work, but they get too hot for some applications. I can't use them in my closed chambers because they run too hot. In an open table, which is no good for small sulcatas, MVBs can work fine.
3. Regular florescent UV tubes (strip lights): These can work. They don't overheat closed chambers, but they must be mounted about 10" away from the tortoises to get much UV benefit from them. Only use the 10.0 versions, as almost no UV comes out of the 5.0 models.
4. HO type florescent units. These produce A LOT of the correct wavelength of UVB. The must be mounted at the correct distance or they could be too intense. I use single Arcadia 12% bulbs in a reflector hood and at a distance of 20" they make as much UV as the summer mid day sun. I only run them for about 4-5 hours mid day on a timer.

Having said all of that, YOU don't need artificial UV. You live in Riverside! You have good tortoise weather year round. I'm up in Santa Clarita and our weather is very similar. My Dad lives out your way. We had 90 degree days in January and February this year. They can go a few weeks in winter with no UV at all, as long as they get sun two or three times a week the rest of the year.

Does this help? Please ask lots more questions if needed.

Yes, that helped a ton! Thank you Tom for your time and effort!

You're right, in my OP I should have said "I'm redoing their enclosureS" (plural), as they are not housed together. Actually, I have three small sulcatas (babysitting one for the in-laws) in one enclosure and two hatchling DTs in another SEPERATE enclosure.

I've read recently about not housing tortoises in pairs, and that was new info to me. That's specifically why I'm redoing their enclosureS, to separate my sulcatas. They are both (all three, actually, including the visitor) from the same hatch and nearly identical in size, growing at the same rate, and eating me out of house and yard and seem to be doing "great" in their pair, but after what I've read from the veterans on this site I figured it'd be best to be proactive and relocate them.

I had planned the same course of action for the deserts as well, but just yesterday I read a comment in an unrelated thread from a member (Yvone? She's listed as a moderator and has ten or twelve million posts, I don't know how to tag someone yet or I'd tag her and ask) stating that in her experience DTs specifically actually do better in pairs in the early stages of their development. I can't remember where the thread was, but I'd like to know more before I separate them. My hatchlings are 8 mo. old, but though they are from the same hatch one is nearly twice as big as the other, which I've read could just be genetics or also could be an indicator of the "bullying" and dominance issues that come from pairs. One day I'll post this question in the DT forum.

As for my location, is artificial UVB really unnecssary? Now that I think about it, I guess I really have no idea what quantifiable amount of UV light the tortoises require. I just figured in that they are desert dwellers, and get lots of sunshine, and tried to replicate that by giving them 8 hrs of UV. Now that I consider what I already know, I guess they do spend a lot of their time underground... I take them all out, seven days a week for at least two hours in the evening. More on weekends. Do you think this would fulfill their UV requirement?

Thanks again for taking the time to help. It is much appreciated.

 

[Tom]

I have found that two 30 minute outings a week is enough UV to prevent MBD and get them what they need. More is better, but twice a week is enough. Be aware that UV levels are much lower in the early morning and late afternoon, in comparison to mid day levels. And I always skip to or three weeks in a row during our occasional winter cold spells with no ill effect. No one anywhere in the world knows exactly what time duration or UV levels are needed by our various species of tortoises in all the various ways they are kept in all the various places in the world. I live near you, and what I'm telling you will work for us here because of out proximity to the equator and our warm sunny climate. For someone in the UK, well, they better order up the Arcadia bulbs and the Powersuns.

About the DT pairs. This is one of the very few areas where Yvonne and I differ in opinion. I love and respect her tremendously, but this is a case of two different people who have seen two different things. There is nothing to suggest to me that DTs are any different than any other species when it comes to being housed in a pair and all of my observations with them give me the same results as with other species. I've raised several dozen baby DTs over the years, and for me, they do the same thing in a pair as every other species. Many people have trouble keeping baby DTs alive. Yvonne will confirm this for us. By the time she gets them, I think they are already suffering the effects of the dehydration that so many baby tortoises are subjected to. She has lost a few through no fault of her own. She has found that sometimes they eat better in a pair due to competition. I find the competition usually makes one shy away from the food more than it would on its own or in a group. I don't know how you choose which way to go, but I will tell you that I've never lost a baby DT. They all live for me. I've had a few take a while to recover from early dehydration, but recover they do.

 

[Tortugatron]

I have found that two 30 minute outings a week is enough UV to prevent MBD and get them what they need. More is better, but twice a week is enough. Be aware that UV levels are much lower in the early morning and late afternoon, in comparison to mid day levels. And I always skip to or three weeks in a row during our occasional winter cold spells with no ill effect. No one anywhere in the world knows exactly what time duration or UV levels are needed by our various species of tortoises in all the various ways they are kept in all the various places in the world. I live near you, and what I'm telling you will work for us here because of out proximity to the equator and our warm sunny climate. For someone in the UK, well, they better order up the Arcadia bulbs and the Powersuns.

About the DT pairs. This is one of the very few areas where Yvonne and I differ in opinion. I love and respect her tremendously, but this is a case of two different people who have seen two different things. There is nothing to suggest to me that DTs are any different than any other species when it comes to being housed in a pair and all of my observations with them give me the same results as with other species. I've raised several dozen baby DTs over the years, and for me, they do the same thing in a pair as every other species. Many people have trouble keeping baby DTs alive. Yvonne will confirm this for us. By the time she gets them, I think they are already suffering the effects of the dehydration that so many baby tortoises are subjected to. She has lost a few through no fault of her own. She has found that sometimes they eat better in a pair due to competition. I find the competition usually makes one shy away from the food more than it would on its own or in a group. I don't know how you choose which way to go, but I will tell you that I've never lost a baby DT. They all live for me. I've had a few take a while to recover from early dehydration, but recover they do.

Great info Tom. I appreciate you lending me your time and your experience. Since the hatchlings have been together since birth and are nearly a year old now and are being fed seperately anyway I decided to separate them this weekend. I'm going to begin recording closely their growth and activity levels. It seems that they are established enough and from what I've learned separation won't hurt them, so I figure it's worth a shot. I know all tortoises grow at different rates, but one is three time or more bigger than the other. I'm interested to see how they do now.

 

[Tom]

I'm interested to see how they do now.

Me too. Please keep us posted.