UVB not a necessity???

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sift

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Just a quick couple points...

Not all reptiles require UVB. As previously mentioned, some rainforest species go their entire lives under the canopy without seeing anything more than a stray sunbeam that happens to penetrate the leaves overhead. Nocturnal animals (or, to make it even better) nocturnal rainforest animals never see the light of day. They are concealed when the sun is out and are active only when there is no chance of them being exposed to UVB. These reptiles do, however, require calcium supplements when kept as pets as their diets are somewhat more restricted than when in the wild. For example, my crested geckos (nocturnal arboreal species) are fed an MRP (meal replacement powder) that provides a complete balance of their dietary needs. I do feed them crickets on occasion (2-3 time per week, typically, sometimes less often) and those are dusted with a calcium supplement.

The UVB lighting debate is one that occurs in almost all arenas of herpetological care. Monitor lizards being a prime example. Some people believe that it is an absolute necessity in order to raise a monitor properly. Others rely on dusting the monitor's food. Still others regulate this arena with a wide variety of consumables. You will find a variety of extremely knowledgable people in each camp who have been successful in raising, keeping, and breeding monitor lizards while each using one of the aforementioned methods.

Further, if you answer the question of "Is UVB beneficial to tortoises?" and the answer is "Yes." then you next must answer the questions of, "How MUCH UVB is beneficial to tortoises?" and "How much UVB is beneficial to _________ (Russian, Redfoot, Sulcata, etc.) tortoises?"

Not trying to be inflammatory or anything, I just love a good debate.

P.S. For the record my monitor lizards are not exposed to UVB bulbs (they have floodlights for basking) and my snakes only have belly heat (i.e. under tank heaters). They are kept in a room with a window that is never bright, bright but receives some level of sunlight throughout the day. They all seem to thrive (eat, eliminate, shed, etc.) with this as their UVB staple.

P.P.S. I don't know if the gentleman who bred my hatchling Russian (18 more days!!) uses UVB but I intend to find out being as he is one of the few people in Canada who have successfully bred Russians for a number of consecutive years.
 

-EJ

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this is kind of funny...

Why do you think they add vitamin D to human food products?

Well... let me tell you... those that live in the northern/southern extreme lattitudes were developing rickets... aka MBD. It was found that they did not get enough exposure to the sun to produce their own vitamin D.

With the wonders of the internet... check out vitamin D and rickets... interesting story.


Meg90 said:
So, if I lived without sunlight for 20 years, but still took a multivitamin, I wouldn't have any bad health effects?

That makes no sense.


What get's me is how were reptiles kept 20 years ago with the vita-lite having a minimal impact. It was argued then that they didn't need it.

sift said:
Just a quick couple points...

Not all reptiles require UVB. As previously mentioned, some rainforest species go their entire lives under the canopy without seeing anything more than a stray sunbeam that happens to penetrate the leaves overhead. Nocturnal animals (or, to make it even better) nocturnal rainforest animals never see the light of day. They are concealed when the sun is out and are active only when there is no chance of them being exposed to UVB. These reptiles do, however, require calcium supplements when kept as pets as their diets are somewhat more restricted than when in the wild. For example, my crested geckos (nocturnal arboreal species) are fed an MRP (meal replacement powder) that provides a complete balance of their dietary needs. I do feed them crickets on occasion (2-3 time per week, typically, sometimes less often) and those are dusted with a calcium supplement.

The UVB lighting debate is one that occurs in almost all arenas of herpetological care. Monitor lizards being a prime example. Some people believe that it is an absolute necessity in order to raise a monitor properly. Others rely on dusting the monitor's food. Still others regulate this arena with a wide variety of consumables. You will find a variety of extremely knowledgable people in each camp who have been successful in raising, keeping, and breeding monitor lizards while each using one of the aforementioned methods.

Further, if you answer the question of "Is UVB beneficial to tortoises?" and the answer is "Yes." then you next must answer the questions of, "How MUCH UVB is beneficial to tortoises?" and "How much UVB is beneficial to _________ (Russian, Redfoot, Sulcata, etc.) tortoises?"

Not trying to be inflammatory or anything, I just love a good debate.
 

sift

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-EJ said:
What get's me is how were reptiles kept 20 years ago with the vita-lite having a minimal impact. It was argued then that they didn't need it.

I'm not familiar with Vita-lite but I do know that if the crested geckos aren't supplemented (either in a balanced MRP or with additional dust for insects) that they develop debilitating and oftentimes fatal cases of MBD. Same goes for leopard geckos. On the flip side of the coin, montior lizards (eating large numbers of insects or fed solely on whole food items (i.e. mice, fish, etc.)) have been raised successfully without any supplementation of any kind (including UVB bulbs).
 

-EJ

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Vita-lite was the first uvb bulb that made it into the herp keeping industry.

They do need a source of vitamin D... no doubt. I've used Centrum for years. My oldest Leopard gecko... 29 years... never had uvb... crickets, centrum and (****, I can't remember the calcium supplement).

sift said:
-EJ said:
What get's me is how were reptiles kept 20 years ago with the vita-lite having a minimal impact. It was argued then that they didn't need it.

I'm not familiar with Vita-lite but I do know that if the crested geckos aren't supplemented (either in a balanced MRP or with additional dust for insects) that they develop debilitating and oftentimes fatal cases of MBD. Same goes for leopard geckos.
 

sift

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tortoisenerd said:
Side note: I've always been told not much UVB if any gets through typical windows.


I think that you're probably right. We seem to tend to want to block out ANYTHING potentially harmful as humans. My windows, however, date back to the construction of the house (at least 60-70 years) and are the old style single pane glass. I have a feeling that if any windows let through UVB it's gonna be these bad boys. ;)

I have since spoken to the breeder I'm getting my little guy from and he doesn't use UVB on his torts, either. He indicated that he does on some of his animals (not which ones, unfortunately) but that he feels diet is the most important factor in keeping/raising Russians. I'm not saying I necessarily agree with him as I'm still on the fence about this one but as far as I know he's one of three or four known tort breeders in Canada (Russians, again) that has been doing it successfully for over a decade. He didn't happen to mention whether or not he takes his outside either but I know I intend to let my little squirt go out for a walkabout and a graze every day that it's nice enough once I've gotten her established.
 

Madkins007

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A quick google check shows that plain glass (old or new) blocks about 98.7% of UVB light. Most plastic is almost as bad at about 96-98%, coated 1/4" hardware mesh blocks a good 30%+ of the UVB, and even chicken wire blocks about 7%.
 

Silvers24

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So question, (this is after reading about how to much D3 could be poisonous)
I have a Ornate Wood Turtle, I know they are forest/tropical.
So, is running the UVB flourescent light bulb 8-10 hours a day bad?
As it's the only source she has for light aswell. (Albiet probably to much light, but she does have something to go under when she wants)
(This is how she was treated in stores though. And they really didn't have anything to hide under)

Should I cut it down, or what?? It's been about 7 months since I had her, and she is still just fine.
 

-EJ

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yea... supplemental... D2 can be a problem. D3... not a problem. With Calcium present.


Millerlite said:
reptiles can have to much D3, it becomes poisonous if to much.
 

DoctorCosmonaut

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I just saw a young Reptile and Avian vet doctor (my Redfoot has been sick, but is on the mend) and she told me she had just been to a conference and new study shows that most UVB bulb brands' bulbs (e.g. ZooMed) have random inconsistent levels of UVB that they put off (aka you can't trust that it is working) and many of them put off too much UVA and can actually do harm to Tortoise eyes. She told me to NOT use any UVB bulbs and just ensure that my girl gets outside during the warm months for now. Even before that I was under the opinion, after talking to a breeder and doing some reading, that UVB bulbs are not that great.
 

Meg90

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I would not recommend that you stop using a UVB bulb.

Brands that are good are Trex, and MegaRay. These brands are mercury vapor bulbs. Compact bulbs (the coil ones) are the bulbs that are causing problems.
 

DoctorCosmonaut

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Meg90 said:
I would not recommend that you stop using a UVB bulb.

Brands that are good are Trex, and MegaRay. These brands are mercury vapor bulbs. Compact bulbs (the coil ones) are the bulbs that are causing problems.

I have a D3 vitamin powder I apply to her food once a week. But I am going to follow my vets advice and not use one until we meet again.
 

Meg90

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Now for redfoots, I know they don't require as mush UVB as other torts, because they have a diet that is much higher is protein. But I still would recommend that you use some form of UVB as well. I have a Trex bulb on both of my torts, and I have never experienced a problem. They came highly recommended to me here as well, by other experienced keepers.
 

DoctorCosmonaut

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Meg90 said:
Now for redfoots, I know they don't require as mush UVB as other torts, because they have a diet that is much higher is protein. But I still would recommend that you use some form of UVB as well. I have a Trex bulb on both of my torts, and I have never experienced a problem. They came highly recommended to me here as well, by other experienced keepers.

Do you know where they carry them? I am always open to looking into new things. Always gotta do my research first
 

Millerlite

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Trex bulb like the MVB? for a redfooted tortoises it would be way to bright, for sulcatas and leopards and other desert speicies it would be good. I dont use uvb anymore though.
 

Meg90

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I was going to get back to this thread today, and then I blanked on it...

no, you want a tube light UVB. Something like a 2.0 I think, would do nicely.
 

DoctorCosmonaut

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Do the tube lights break when splashed or in high humidity? Can you buy aquarium tube bulbs that would do the job?
 

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Jordan, I have a long tube 10.0 UVB on one side of Pio's enclosure for the past two years. (changing it every 6 months or so) It doesn't give off too much light and NO heat at all. So it is good for Redfoots. I used to use a 5.0 when he was in a 30 gal vivarium. I got the 10.0 since I enlarged his enclosure. The high humidity never bothered it. I wouldn't spray it though. Just spray the plants for humidity. Nothing has to be wet.
 
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