Preparing for enclosure upgrade, need advice.

[JoFisch]

I have a 3y old male Eastern Hermanns Tortoise that we have raised from a hatchling. He has lived inside exclusively but I will be building an outdoor enclosure next Spring. It is time to take him from his 4x4 enclosure to an 8x4. I ordered a closed chamber enclosure from Toad Ranch and I’ve got 8-10 weeks before it ships.
Currently I’ve got a 48 inch Arcadia UV tube lamp, flood lamp for basking, LED strip lights, and a CHE for additional heat as needed. His enclosure ambient temp is 77-80 and basking is 100 during the day. I have the CHE on a thermostat, basking is on 12 hours and UV tube is on 6 hours. I monitor UV output with a solarmeter. Everything is shut off from 6pm to 6am and the house cools down to 68 at night.
Toad Ranch specifically says not to put a CHE in their PVC enclosures. They say that they get to hot and recommend the Arcadia Deep Heat Penetrator.

I was hoping someone could advise me on the set up of my lights and heat sources. My plan is to hang the UV tube in the middle of the enclosure and there will be 2 feet on either end where Opal can get out of the UV. Currently I have the basking lamp and the CHE at opposite corners of the enclosure but it looks like Arcadia recommends putting the Arcadia DHP next to a basking lamp. I follow Chris Leone at Garden State Tortoise and he encourages making sure the Hermanns have a cooler area and letting their ambient temp drop at night. Do I therefore need a heat source at the opposite end of my enclosure? Should I put the basking site in the middle and let the 2 ends drop?

I know I’ll have to make adjustments once I have the enclosure set up, I’m just trying to decide if I need to purchase other fixtures.

Thanks,
Joanna

 

[wellington]

Put the basking in the middle of a end with the uvb close to it. Leave the middle and other end to be the range of 75 furthest from basking end to around 80 in the middle and then your basking end
Put a ceramic heat emitter on the cooler end and the hide to sleep in. If temps drop lower than around 68 at night, put the ceramic heat emitter on, but on a thermostat.

 

[JoFisch]

My enclosure arrived and man is it huge. I was hoping to hear from folks with a large pvc enclosure. I appreciate Wellington’s quick reply but my biggest concern is that Toad Ranch specifically says not to use a ceramic heat emitter in the enclosure. They state it gets too hot.

Is this the experience of other keepers with pvc enclosures? As we do not keep our house particularly cold (68 is the lowest), will I need an extra heat source? The enclosure is 4ft wide X 8 feet long X 4 feet tall (I don’t know why I ordered such a tall one. It is fully enclosed with sliding tempered glass doors.

Do you think a CHE is inappropriate for this enclosure? It would be centered so at least 1.5 feet from closest walls and I can hang it 2 or more feet from the ceiling. I also wouldn’t set the thermostat higher than 75 F.

Should I just get a RHP? After spending a small fortune on the enclosure and substrate, I just want to have the thing set up properly so I don’t have to worry.

I appreciate your advice.

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

I don’t have personal experience with a pvc enclosure but I’m sure I’ve seen folks use ceramics in them, let me tag @Tom i think he possibly has, though I could be wrong.. if on a thermostat though I don’t know why it would be an issue

 

[Alex and the Redfoot]

My enclosure arrived and man is it huge. I was hoping to hear from folks with a large pvc enclosure. I appreciate Wellington’s quick reply but my biggest concern is that Toad Ranch specifically says not to use a ceramic heat emitter in the enclosure. They state it gets too hot.

Is this the experience of other keepers with pvc enclosures? As we do not keep our house particularly cold (68 is the lowest), will I need an extra heat source? The enclosure is 4ft wide X 8 feet long X 4 feet tall (I don’t know why I ordered such a tall one. It is fully enclosed with sliding tempered glass doors.

Do you think a CHE is inappropriate for this enclosure? It would be centered so at least 1.5 feet from closest walls and I can hang it 2 or more feet from the ceiling. I also wouldn’t set the thermostat higher than 75 F.

Should I just get a RHP? After spending a small fortune on the enclosure and substrate, I just want to have the thing set up properly so I don’t have to worry.

I appreciate your advice.

Hello!
The way you plan to hang a CHE - is fine. No risk of melting PVC. Yet if you keep your house in 68-70F - ambient heat is not necessary.

 

[Alex and the Redfoot]

I have another question and I’m hoping someone can offer advice. For ambient lighting I am considering

thank you! I ended up ordering the RHP to be safe but I appreciate your advice.

Oh, okay. RHP is a great way to keep ambient temperatures. However, as with CHEs, effective heating distance is 2-2.5 ft so you'll have to suspend it from the ceiling.

The part of your post about ambient lightning is missing.

 

[JoFisch]

Hello!
The way you plan to hang a CHE - is fine. No risk of melting PVC. Yet if you keep your house in 68-70F - ambient heat is not necessary.

Thank you for your advice. I ended up ordering the RHP, to be on the safe side.

 

[JoFisch]

I do have another question. Currently I have 2 spider plants and a pothos in my enclosure that has a clear plastic top and some led lights. This new enclosure is black and fully opaque except for the tempered glass sliding doors.
For ambient light I am considering putting in led strip grow lights to support the live plants better.

The enclosure is 4 feet tall. If I mount the grow lights on the ceiling, they will be 3 feet from the plants. Another option will be to mount them on the walls a foot or so above the plants. I know neither is going to be ideal for the plants because these lights are designed to be hung 8-20 inches above the plants.

Which configuration do you think will best support the plants? Or do I need to come up with a different plan?

 

[Alex and the Redfoot]

I do have another question. Currently I have 2 spider plants and a pothos in my enclosure that has a clear plastic top and some led lights. This new enclosure is black and fully opaque except for the tempered glass sliding doors.
For ambient light I am considering putting in led strip grow lights to support the live plants better.

The enclosure is 4 feet tall. If I mount the grow lights on the ceiling, they will be 3 feet from the plants. Another option will be to mount them on the walls a foot or so above the plants. I know neither is going to be ideal for the plants because these lights are designed to be hung 8-20 inches above the plants.

Which configuration do you think will best support the plants? Or do I need to come up with a different plan?

I would mount grow lights on the ceiling. This will be better for your tortoise. You can add more light fixtures as brightness is "additive". And you'll have a UVB light installed at 2 ft. - it alone can be enough for pothos and spider plants, yet they grow better with proper lightning.

 

[Markw84]

A CHE in a dome and suspended from the ceiling works well in a PVC enclosure. I have done many PVC enclosures with that configuration. You do want a dome to direct the IR down, and you want the CHE and fixture at least a few inches away from the ceiling. I do prefer RHPs over CHEs but you need to have a well designed enclosure for a RHP to efficiently heat.

My best configuration with an 8 ft enclosure is 2 80 watt RHPs. However that is a 30" tall enclosure and my enclosures are built with double wall PVC (and double wall doors) with air gap between the layers. So you probably will find a single RHP will not adequately heat your enclosure.

Pothos do extremely well in lower light and thrive in our enclosures. Spider plant is a close 2nd. So I think you will have no problem with the plants in your enclosure. You probably can add some more LED ambient lighting to help from what I gather from your description.

For lighting I have found 3 main elements need to be addressed:

Ambient lighting. I use 90+CRI and 5000-6000k LED lights. I use enough to get about 400 lumen per sq ft lighting the enclosure. I firmly believe we want to create a summertime lighting unless you are preparing your tortoise for brumation. So I do 13.5 hours on/ 10.5 hours off. (12 on 12 off leaves your temperate tortoise in a early spring/late fall limbo!)

Basking light. I use incandescent bulbs. Adjust height to get the proper basking zone temperature. They are normally in the 2500k color range so that by itself is an early morning/evening lighting color. Added to ambient LEDs it is a good mix. I do use the warmer color to simulate a dawn/dusk period. So I have the basking light come on 15 minutes before and off 15 minutes after the LEDs. I don't like a tortoise to go from bright daylight to total darkness suddenly.

UVB/UVA. I use Arcadia proT5 with 12% or 14% bulbs. I can hang these a bit higher and get a better dispersion over a wider basking zone. I only want the UVB covering about 1/3 to 1/2 the enclosure and the basking light needs to be in this zone. In a larger enclosure like this, I will have it on 6 hours midday. Since they are normally in the 7500k-8000k color range, this creates a very nice midday sun effect along with the other lighting all on at this time. In a smaller enclosure with less room to get away from the UVB, I have it on 4 hours midday.

 

[JoFisch]

I would mount grow lights on the ceiling. This will be better for your tortoise. You can add more light fixtures as brightness is "additive". And you'll have a UVB light installed at 2 ft. - it alone can be enough for pothos and spider plants, yet they grow better with proper lightning.

Thank you! This helps me make some choices. Luckily (?) the website I was going to purchase the RHP from was having issues so the purchase didn’t go through. Now I can switch gears.
Have a great New Year.

 

[JoFisch]

A CHE in a dome and suspended from the ceiling works well in a PVC enclosure. I have done many PVC enclosures with that configuration. You do want a dome to direct the IR down, and you want the CHE and fixture at least a few inches away from the ceiling. I do prefer RHPs over CHEs but you need to have a well designed enclosure for a RHP to efficiently heat.

My best configuration with an 8 ft enclosure is 2 80 watt RHPs. However that is a 30" tall enclosure and my enclosures are built with double wall PVC (and double wall doors) with air gap between the layers. So you probably will find a single RHP will not adequately heat your enclosure.

Pothos do extremely well in lower light and thrive in our enclosures. Spider plant is a close 2nd. So I think you will have no problem with the plants in your enclosure. You probably can add some more LED ambient lighting to help from what I gather from your description.

For lighting I have found 3 main elements need to be addressed:

Ambient lighting. I use 90+CRI and 5000-6000k LED lights. I use enough to get about 400 lumen per sq ft lighting the enclosure. I firmly believe we want to create a summertime lighting unless you are preparing your tortoise for brumation. So I do 13.5 hours on/ 10.5 hours off. (12 on 12 off leaves your temperate tortoise in a early spring/late fall limbo!)

Basking light. I use incandescent bulbs. Adjust height to get the proper basking zone temperature. They are normally in the 2500k color range so that by itself is an early morning/evening lighting color. Added to ambient LEDs it is a good mix. I do use the warmer color to simulate a dawn/dusk period. So I have the basking light come on 15 minutes before and off 15 minutes after the LEDs. I don't like a tortoise to go from bright daylight to total darkness suddenly.

UVB/UVA. I use Arcadia proT5 with 12% or 14% bulbs. I can hang these a bit higher and get a better dispersion over a wider basking zone. I only want the UVB covering about 1/3 to 1/2 the enclosure and the basking light needs to be in this zone. In a larger enclosure like this, I will have it on 6 hours midday. Since they are normally in the 7500k-8000k color range, this creates a very nice midday sun effect along with the other lighting all on at this time. In a smaller enclosure with less room to get away from the UVB, I have it on 4 hours midday.

Thank you so much Mark. I really appreciate the detail you put into your responses. I know it takes extra time and may be tedious for you but the level of detail you provide is very helpful. There are so many variables in lighting that someone without a strong knowledge of the subject has no idea what to look for. I always enjoy your threads and I appreciate your advice.

 

[JoFisch]

This is where I am so far. The website I was going to order the RHP from wasn’t processing my payment so I’m looking for an alternative. The 100w CHE and 65w flood lamp only raise the ambient temp 5 degrees above the house temp. I am going to get a higher watt flood lamp so it doesn’t have to sit so low to get the basking area to 100.. I have 6 LED bar lights (4ft long) on the ceiling for ambient light and the arcadia T5 12% UV tube.

Where would you put the RHP(s)? I can get a 40 x 11 inch 150w panel and mount it on a wall or suspend it from the ceiling. I’d put it in the middle=ish. Or I could get a couple of smaller panels and spread them out more. If I put one on the L side, it’d have to be wall mounted to avoid the basking light. On the R end there is plenty of room to suspend or wall mount. I just can’t mount on the ceiling because of the led lights.

 

[Alex and the Redfoot]

Probably, suspending it in the middle is the best option. However, I suspect that panel will block light from ambient LEDs.