Breeding or aggression?

[namenotshared43]

For a while I have had 2 females - but a few months ago (Feb time) I got a male from a rescue Center who was missing parts of his shell due to a fox attack.
My male lives separate to my females - I built a large outside enclosure for my torts over a year ago and split it into 2 enclosures when I got my male.
I have every so often placed my larger female with my male and observed, but recently the FEMALE has been chasing him, biting his shell and his legs, climbing on him - basically dominating him.
I worry about his shell because he is already missing part of it from his previous life - but if they are breeding/ flirting I don’t want to intrude on what is a natural behaviour.
My male seems very interested in her, and I saw her kicking her back legs as if she was going to lay an egg the other day (she never did).
This is my first time owning a male, and I’m just wondering if this is normal? I know around now is breeding season - but I work in zookeeping and I still feel out of my depth.. this is very different to what I work with at a zoo lol

 

[Tom]

For a while I have had 2 females - but a few months ago (Feb time) I got a male from a rescue Center who was missing parts of his shell due to a fox attack.
My male lives separate to my females - I built a large outside enclosure for my torts over a year ago and split it into 2 enclosures when I got my male.
I have every so often placed my larger female with my male and observed, but recently the FEMALE has been chasing him, biting his shell and his legs, climbing on him - basically dominating him.
I worry about his shell because he is already missing part of it from his previous life - but if they are breeding/ flirting I don’t want to intrude on what is a natural behaviour.
My male seems very interested in her, and I saw her kicking her back legs as if she was going to lay an egg the other day (she never did).
This is my first time owning a male, and I’m just wondering if this is normal? I know around now is breeding season - but I work in zookeeping and I still feel out of my depth.. this is very different to what I work with at a zoo lol

The first thing is to know that they should never be housed in pairs, regardless of sexes. One is always dominant and the other submissive, and even if there is not overt obvious battle, there is always underlying low grade chronic stress about having an intruder in the territory, or being the intruder in the territory. Group dynamics are different than pair dynamics.

Female Testudo can also be aggressive and territorial. A female attacking a male is not breeding behavior, its territorial behavior. Often a female does this when egg laying is imminent. They often try to bully and harass the smaller males out of the territory so they can lay their eggs in peace. Its when the male does this to the female that he is trying to show strength and dominance to get her to allow him to copulate.

What to do in your situation? Option #1: Remove the divider and let them all live together. This sometimes works and sometimes doesn't. Increase the chances of success by having a huge enclosure with lots of sight barriers, plants, and hides. Sometimes this works for a while, and then the females get mean around egg laying time, and sometimes the males get too amorous during breeding times. All you can do here s try it and observe, but always have a "plan B".

Option #2: Make three separate enclosures, and house them all separately. This is safest, always works, and allows you to monitor how much each tortoise is eating on a daily basis, which is a good indicator of health or problems.

Option#3: House them separately and put the females in with the male for breeding. Best time for this is springtime 2-4 weeks after waking from brumation, and periodically after that. If the females show aggression toward him, that means they aren't interested at the moment, and you should separate them and try again later.

 

[namenotshared43]

The first thing is to know that they should never be housed in pairs, regardless of sexes. One is always dominant and the other submissive, and even if there is not overt obvious battle, there is always underlying low grade chronic stress about having an intruder in the territory, or being the intruder in the territory. Group dynamics are different than pair dynamics.

Female Testudo can also be aggressive and territorial. A female attacking a male is not breeding behavior, its territorial behavior. Often a female does this when egg laying is imminent. They often try to bully and harass the smaller males out of the territory so they can lay their eggs in peace. Its when the male does this to the female that he is trying to show strength and dominance to get her to allow him to copulate.

What to do in your situation? Option #1: Remove the divider and let them all live together. This sometimes works and sometimes doesn't. Increase the chances of success by having a huge enclosure with lots of sight barriers, plants, and hides. Sometimes this works for a while, and then the females get mean around egg laying time, and sometimes the males get too amorous during breeding times. All you can do here s try it and observe, but always have a "plan B".

Option #2: Make three separate enclosures, and house them all separately. This is safest, always works, and allows you to monitor how much each tortoise is eating on a daily basis, which is a good indicator of health or problems.

Option#3: House them separately and put the females in with the male for breeding. Best time for this is springtime 2-4 weeks after waking from brumation, and periodically after that. If the females show aggression toward him, that means they aren't interested at the moment, and you should separate them and try again later.

My 2 females have lived together for a solid 2 years - before that my larger female lived with a different female for about 5 years - they never show any signs of aggression towards eachother, and both eat plenty of food - so I don’t believe they cannot be kept in a pair - however on the contrary, putting the male in with them - is it a smart move? They are all Hermanns btw

 

[Tom]

My 2 females have lived together for a solid 2 years - before that my larger female lived with a different female for about 5 years - they never show any signs of aggression towards eachother, and both eat plenty of food - so I don’t believe they cannot be kept in a pair - however on the contrary, putting the male in with them - is it a smart move? They are all Hermanns btw

They are still alive after years of being together as a pair, but that doesn't mean it was good. It means it was survivable. As I said, its not about overt obvious signs of aggression, Its about the mental aspect too. Ask someone who keep chameleons what happens when a chameleon can merely see another chameleon across the room in another cage. It's not good.

They "can" be kept as pairs, but what I'm trying to get across is that it is not in their best interest and it's not good for them. It causes chronic stress.

 

[wellington]

You got the best advice from Tom. You won't go wrong taking it and using it. You could very well go wrong ignoring it.

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

My 2 females have lived together for a solid 2 years - before that my larger female lived with a different female for about 5 years - they never show any signs of aggression towards eachother, and both eat plenty of food - so I don’t believe they cannot be kept in a pair - however on the contrary, putting the male in with them - is it a smart move? They are all Hermanns btw

I’m late to this thread but did want to second that tortoise of any species shouldn’t be housed in pairs under any circumstances, they’re incredibly territorial, behaviours that look cute to us really aren’t, following one another and sleeping huddled up is all bullying the the tortoise world, you’ll eventually see more extreme signs of aggression. Anyone who tells you pairs are fine, have no idea what they’re talking about, breeders unfortunately sell pairs too often.

Small groups are ok when there’s lots of land and the correct male to female ratio, this isn’t because they necessarily prefer the company, but because it doesn’t allow dominant behaviour to escalate into further aggression, a tortoise may well start following one tortoise, see another and start following them instead, that’s just one example. By nature tortoises are incredibly solitary animals, they only seek out to mate, then live primarily on their own. Have some species been documented hanging out in groups seemingly unbothered? Absolutely, but again this doesn’t mean they’re seeking out the company, rather than they are seeking out the environment in a particular hang out spot. Again this is group dynamics, not a pair. Pairs are completely unnatural, one will always be trying to compete for dominance, even if not to the naked eye, babies often stunt one another’s growth, or cause failure to thrive, this is often picked up too late, when you think everything is going fine, suddenly it isn’t. My point is, it’s not worth the risk to either tortoise, even if you don’t see out right aggression, this is an incredibly stressful housing situation, the stress is sometimes not easy to pick up on