bulb distances

[Hustler]

I use my cannon camera to evaluate the levels put off by the flourecents.... and honestly Ive only ever seen them lower.... This is what you have to do when taking pictures of the asian arowana fish lol...... very tricky to photograpgh but i just checked my redfoot enclosure and they are about 300k off from the stated range lower so..... I dont know why they would be any better or brighter than a tube of the same wattage to tube size ratio?

 

[Hustler]

Now you have me all freaked out..... I have a reptisun 2.0 5.0 and 10.0 26W and a 26W 6500k grow light 18" above my guys..... I figured it was enough and not overkill..... not hurting anything ect..... Should I be pulling them?

 

[Balboa]

Looks like you know some stuff about lighting. You may appreciate an article I wasted my time writing a while back.

http://www.tortoiseforum.org/Thread-Practical-Lighting-for-Tortoise-Keepers#axzz1HelVwI23

There's more to this than color temps though, particularily the actual bandwidths that make up our perceived color temp, and some we can't see.

The actual problem with some of the older lamps is they cause "photo-kerato-conjunctivitis". This is basically "snow-blindness".

http://www.uvguide.co.uk/phototherapyphosphor-info.htm

If you watch your torts and their behavior closely you should be able to spot signs of this before it gets too advanced. There's a risk of this from any UV source.

As stated, most forum members will tell you to just rip those spirals out, why risk it? What I like to point out is that the risk is always there with any uv source that is actually intense enough to be of benefit.

As configured, your CFL lamps should be able to put out much more intense UV than most linear lamps, which spread it out more. THis may be good, this may be bad (some complain the linear are too weak and "spread out" to do any good). The only way to know is if you measure it. The meters to do so are a little spendy, but dirt cheap compared to health problems from either too weak or too strong of an output. I don't have meters yet myself, but I'm relying on dietary D3 at this point.

 

[Yvonne G]

Was that determined to be the cause Yvonne?

The tortoise improved almost immediately when the light was removed.

I'm not an expert on lights, and can only talk about what I've experienced or heard. I "heard" that the spiral bulbs concentrated the UV out the end of the bulb. And that was what caused the problems. (So I'm wondering if maybe they could be mounted horizontally instead of vertically???)

 

[Hustler]

My main fixture houses 3 bulbs horizontally so i hope that helps.... but Im thinking maybe Ill just pull them and install a 4 foot flourecent on the inside of the pen.
That is a great article and explains it alot I grow alot of aquatic plants in my fish tanks so Im pretty good with bulb selections but ive never seen a blind fish lol..... so now Im worried about too much light for the torts.

 

[Balboa]

That's where I got alot of my background, learning to keep them aquarium plants alive.

I tend to believe in providing lots of light, and giving the torts plenty of plants and hides to take cover under if the choose. (A more naturalistic home). For those keepers who prefer more barren enclosures dim lights make sense.

Interesting info Yvonne. I'll suspect that there are additional factors at play here, as is often the case in these things. I believe correctly balanced lighting is crucial to encouraging positive behaviors in our torts. Generally speaking a malfunctioning (excessive UV) lamp will either encourage a tort to hide or more likely simply harm their eyes. Something that should be pointed out that except in extreme cases those lights were not directly causing death nor permanent damage. As long as the problem is identified promptly (once the eyes swell shut in most cases) and the offending light is removed or its placement corrected the animals healed in a few days. (Its like a sunburn to the eyes, it doesn't permanently blind in most cases). Some of the stories attributed to these lights don't quite add up. Problems were noticed when for instance, a lizard was allowed to bask on a branch literally inches from and at a level equal to the dangerous lamp. One of these lamps suspended well above a tort shouldn't be able to kill nor permanently blind them.

 

[Tom]

Just wanted to chime in here. I've been PMing with several people with baby torts recently and ALL of them were showing the same symptoms and having the same problems under those coil bulbs that the pet stores seem to be pushing so hard. All of them showed immediate improvement when the bulbs were switched out. The problem is NOT fixed and they appear to be as dangerous and damaging to tortoise eyes as ever. I would NEVR use or recommend one of these. I cannot give you a technical explanation for WHY they damage tortoise eyes, but I CAN tell you for sure that they do. I have never seen this problem with the tube-style florescents. Those coil bulbs need to be recalled and pulled from the shelves, but the big stores won't listen until it hurts their bottom line.

Hope this helps.

 

[expiredgummiworm]

check out my new contraption. working at a hardware store has its perks. i had one clamp light originally on a stick i had in the aquarium but changing the bulbs at day and night was getting a little annoying and the heat emitter is way too hot to touch. i could have just gotten another clamp lamp at my store but i decided this would be much easier so, from the advice of some i decided to hang them inside and hang spiral bulb horizontally for the mean time, till i get the better bulb. its not glamorous in the least, but it gets the job done. I was also a little scare of cutting into the mesh top. XD

 

[Balboa]

Nice handiwork, I'm a little concerned about how low the CHE is hanging though.

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Just wanted to chime in here. I've been PMing with several people with baby torts recently and ALL of them were showing the same symptoms and having the same problems under those coil bulbs that the pet stores seem to be pushing so hard. All of them showed immediate improvement when the bulbs were switched out. The problem is NOT fixed and they appear to be as dangerous and damaging to tortoise eyes as ever. I would NEVR use or recommend one of these. I cannot give you a technical explanation for WHY they damage tortoise eyes, but I CAN tell you for sure that they do. I have never seen this problem with the tube-style florescents. Those coil bulbs need to be recalled and pulled from the shelves, but the big stores won't listen until it hurts their bottom line.

Hope this helps.

What symptoms and what brand Tom? And NOTHING else was changed with husbandry?

 

[expiredgummiworm]

thank you. the temperature is 85. if there is any problem, my contraption is entirely adjustable

 

[John]

I'm also thinking the che is too low.

 

[Yvonne G]

When they first came out (the spiral bulbs) Maggie had one over three hatchling sulcatas. After a week or so when she realized they were VERY ill, she took them to the vet. They all had burned corneas. The vet said it was like snow blindness. One of them died, one was totally blinded and the third, which she kept, was blind in one eye. I don't remember if he ever got his sight back or not. It was VERY painful. The eyes watered and the tortoises wiped at them with those horned legs. They opened their mouths in pain. This was an extreme case, and was with the bulbs when they first came on the market. Now, after the bulbs are supposedly fixed, it seems it first causes lethargy and no appetite.

 

[Maggie Cummings]

For one of the very rare times my sister is wrong. I put the 3 Sulcata hatchlings on pine substrate. One died, one had his corneas burned and I got one out alive with no problems. Pine is toxic to tortoises and the fumes will burn their eyes. The one with his corneas burned lived with me for 3 years and was treated for those 3 years. It was an awful thing to witness, the pain he endured was horrific, he drooled and his mouth would foam and both eyes ran fluid something awful. He suffered the same symptoms as a yearling Sulcata I was given by his new keeper because he never opened his eyes and would never do anything. She wanted him to open his eyes and be active with her. So she was giving him up to me mostly because he was no fun. She also gave me all his equipment and so I set him up in my rescue just like he was set up in her house. I had him in a 50 gallon aquarium under her coil light. I used orchid bark for his substrate and gave him a nice hide and he had a water pool to drink out of or soak in. But he never opened his eyes for me and was never active, so I started paying attention to him and I could see his eyes were swollen and had a pus over them. I started washing them out and putting Terramycin eye ointment in them, and he just got worse, he was very lethargic and his eyes were swollen in an odd way and they ran fluid. So I started him on antibiotic injections, and took him to my Vet. She looked closely at his eyes and put a dye in them and she said that the first 2 layers of his corneas were burned, but we couldn't figure out why. So she gives him one tube feeding and some time passes and he was so lethargic that I thought he was at deaths door. Then as I was cleaning out his tank my elbow hit and broke the bulb. So I put in a MVB and less than a week later he was almost back to normal. He had diminished sight in both eyes and it was about that time that my Vet came across some information about the spiral bulbs and all the information pointed to those bulbs as causing the problems in that yearling. You never ever saw any animal improve as fast as he did after that bulb broke. Within a week he was eating but those 2 layers of his corneas were burned thru so it was another year of treatments for his eyes. But as far as being lethargic and not eating that changed in a matter of days. I am positive that it was the coil bulb that caused all his trouble. I know that they say the new bulbs are fine, but we are still getting newbies with small tortoises who are lethargic and they don't want to open their eyes and those keepers are using a coiled bulb. So if they've fixed those bulbs, why are we still getting new members with the same symptoms under a coil bulb? There is really no evidence that the bulbs are fixed and a ton of evidence that they aren't...all you need as proof is to read the different threads on this forum and see how many small tortoises are still being damaged by those bulbs. They are still signing up on TFO every day and they all say the same thing, my tortoise won't open his eyes and he's really lethargic...and they all are using a cheap coiled bulb...

sorry for the long post...

 

[Balboa]

Thanks ladies! I've got some work to do, now to find the time and the funding I keep pushing this one to the backburner, but my curiousity is driving me nuts.

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A well duh moment. I think I'd like to put out a call to folks to send me lamps that have given them trouble.

 

[Yvonne G]

I must apologize...I'm so embarrassed! I mixed up those stories in my mind and gave you all the wrong scoop. Pine shavings, not coil bulbs. I'm real sorry for the confusion that I may have caused.

Brett:

That's a good idea about having the coil bulbs sent to you. Maybe if you can figure out what's wrong or which brands, we might be able to contact the mfg and get some feedback from them about the bulbs.

 

[Maggie Cummings]

I still have one I shoved back on the shelf. Do ya want to print your address here or shoot me a PM?

 

[Balboa]

Nothing to be embarassed about Yvonne.... how can we ever keep it all straight. Like I mentioned to you before, I forget to eat breakfast

Yah, I'd rather not publish my address but anyone who wants can PM me for it, it'd be great if we can get to the bottom of this.

 

[onarock]

Does anyone know if its just certain bulbs or are all of them bad?

 

[Yvonne G]

That's got to be our next question, Paul, "Are you using the spiral bulb, and if so, what brand is it?"

 

[lynnedit]

I still have one I shoved back on the shelf. Do ya want to print your address here or shoot me a PM?

That sounds like a really tough experience for you and your torts long ago, but you have helped the rest of us learn and improve our care!