Calcium and Phosphorus ratio of foods (as well as protein & fiber info))

[MrFrost]

First of all, for the new people here, for captive tortoises the ideal calciumhosphorus ratio of the foods they eat is 2:1. The foods containing these should be the main thing that you should be feeding the tortoise, while the maximum safe ratio (mainly for the wild and the tortoises kept outdoors) is 4:1.

Credit to IguanaDen website, they have compiled a list of the quantities and the ratios found in a lot of vegetables and fruits that could be used to feed the tortoise:

Vegetable Calciumhosphorus Ratios
http://www.iguanaden.org/diet/calphosveg.htm

Fruit Calciumhosphorus Ratios
http://www.iguanaden.org/diet/calphosfruit.htm

An important thing to pay attention to is to not give importance to the position they are found on a chart, that is specifically used for iguanas, while for us fellow tortoise owners need to pay attention to vegetables and fruits with the ratio situated between 2:1 and 4:1 max. This is, however, general feeding advice for all tortoises, what needs to be also consulted, depending on what kind of tortoise you got is this: http://www.tortoisetrust.org/articles/webdiet.htm

Fiber
Although most foods contain reasonable amounts of fiber, having a high fiber diet for any tortoise is good because of the fact that it facilitates digestion, which is never a bad thing. High fiber diets also prevent the common occurrence of constipation.

Special for tortoises, fruits recommended with high fiber are: Dried figs, raisins, raspberries, bananas, strawberries pears and apples. Oranges are good too but you must really measure how much you're giving to the tortoise, because oranges contain a lot of citric acid which causes a lot of digestive issues with the tortoise. Just feeding modest amounts of banana the tortoise should 99% of the time would do the trick because you'd want the tortoise to get fiber but you wouldn't want at the same time to get a lot of sugar in the system or facilitate diarrhea, intestinal parasites nor colic.

Protein
A bit of protein is good for tortoises, but going overboard with how much protein they ingest will also cause a lot of problems with the tortoise ranging from pyramiding to liver disease and renal failure. Protein intake should be kept as low as possible and only coming from foods that respect the ratio talked about above.

For any more specialised info for the exact species of tortoise that you have, consult this website for further info on the diet: http://www.tortoisetrust.org/articles/webdiet.htm

 

[Tom]

Everything you have posted above as facts, is actually opinion and some of it is highly debatable with lots of evidence to the contrary. It is also going to vary by species.

In two books on Hermanni and a essay style scientific paper on russians, they reported that wild torts of at least these two species often eat foods with calcium to phosphorous ratios of 12:1 or higher.

Protein intake is also highly debatable, and again, will depend on species. It has been reported that wild sulcata will eat carrion with gusto every opportunity they get, and captive observations support this. What about RFs, YFs or manouria?

I won't even get into your fruit recommendations... Suffice to say, I don't agree.

I understand the intent of your post, and I think in general following your advice won't hurt a tortoise, but some of your assertions are often repeated info, but not necessarily proven or correct.

 

[Yvonne G]

ratio of foods (as well as protein & fiber info))

Andy Highfield (The Tortoise Trust) is a pretty well-known tortoise person, however, he's been awfully busy lately, and hasn't updated the articles on his site for quite a while. The article you linked was written in 2002. We have learned quite a bit since then that tells us different and our new education has been proved by members here through actual experience and followed through pictures here on the Forum.

 

[DeanS]

Of course, I look at these links and laugh! BUT...I cringe for the novice who latches onto it as fact...

 

[Tom]

I vaguely remember Andy mentioning calcium to phosphorous ratios of 32:1 in his wild greek studies in that recent pyramiding discussion. Does anyone else remember that or have a link to that thread? There were 18 or more pages on that one, so I really don't feel like spending an hour looking for that one reference. I remember it was VERY high.

 

[jaizei]

Diet. Critical. The diet should be designed to maximize healthy bone generation. This diet probably looks OK to most keepers... but it is not.

Too digestible. Too low in fiber. This kind of diet promotes rapid growth, especially if over-fed. The vast majority of keepers over-feed. Most of these species are seasonally cyclic feeders. Not every day. You could write a book on this topic alone (in fact, I did) - the 'Tortoise & Turtle Feeding Manual' back in 2000. It is now out of print but a new, updated edition is due out early 2014. Avoid fruits with semi-arid and desert species. People think they help hydration.... they also cause diarrhea, loose stools, and fluid loss. They also accelerate gut function and change gut pH. I use none at all. I use higher calcium ratios than most people recommend. We financed a study on wild T. kleinmanni diets in Israel a couple of years ago... and the calcium-phosphorus ratio was as high as 14:1. Here in Spain, the wild graeca diets are also in that range. Very high. Many folks seem to think 2:1 is adequate. I disagree. Fiber content needs to be extremely high. 30-40%. Most diets are below 20%. Full recent article on this.
(click link to read). This also shows food deprivation periods...

Yes - I do not feed every day if keeping tortoises indoors (which I do rarely these days). I give "off days". No extra light. No extra heat. No food. This slows growth up, and coincidentally reduces exposure to potentially damaging heat/light sources. They have "off days" in the wild too. Lots of them. More off days than on in some cases. Many keepers find this a difficult concept to accept...

That is just a brief summary, very incomplete, but includes the basic principles I have found to produce really healthy tortoises that are practically indistinguishable from wild specimens. Some of the animals raised on this regime are now producing 2nd generation offspring.

I have a very busy schedule this week, so have to leave it at that for the time being. I do hope you found this interesting. Thanks to all who contributed

http://www.tortoiseforum.org/thread-83263-post-787195.html#pid787195

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Yes, you can calcify the insides. Keep the powders minimal and very light depending on diet you may not need any at all. If this is calcium OD

This is not accurate. There is zero practical chance of 'overdosing' on calcium alone in the manner described here. It is not biologically possible. It can be conclusively ruled out.

Almost all captive animals are on far lower Ca intakes than wild specimens to begin with - which is why regular supplementation is a very good idea. Wild Ca levels are typically very high indeed. Higher than is commonly realised. The calcium-phosphorus ratio is also typically higher than usually cited, in the range 10:1 to 14:1 in wild Testudo diets, for example. A captive diet rarely exceeds 3:1, even with fairly heavy supplementation.

In addition, for soft-tissue mineralization to occur, exceptionally high levels of oral - direct - D3 dosing is required. Calcium alone cannot do that, and neither can exposure to natural UVB (it self-limits). The only cases in the literature of soft-tissue mineralization involve direct consumption of oral vitamin D3 or D2 sources, sometimes in the form of cat/dog foods and "monkey chow". Those cases mostly date back many years to the late 60's and early 70's when such inappropriate diets were widely used. A few more recent cases involved keepers grossly over-supplementing with oral D3 'Solar Drops' and similar products.

Excess consumed calcium is merely excreted under normal circumstances.

You need to look elsewhere for the solution. As suggested above, those symptoms are consistent with a flagellate problem. So, screening a sample under the microscope is essential. They are very evident if present. Your specialist veterinarian should be consulted.

There are also several other possibilities. Some ciliate protozoan organisms can produce similar issues if present at high concentrations, and indeed, anything which may be irritating the gut lining may also be a possibility. Again, a sample should be checked. It is also worth running a worm ova flotation count.

It is also a fact that you should not, in a healthy tortoise on a suitable diet, see any protozoan problems in the first place. You do need to look at the diet very carefully. For this species, very high fiber (30%+) of low digestibility and low energy content. Excess carbohydrate intakes can and will contribute to unhealthy gut motility and a greatly enhanced risk factor for protozoan proliferation.

If repeated protozoan problems occur, this can suggest a compromised immune system (once dietary causes have been rules out). A full investigation is then required to determine if this is so.

http://www.tortoiseforum.org/thread-84287-post-787463.html#pid787463

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If so, what can I do to prevent it from progressing?

Testudoresearch, why don't you help out this new member and offer her some answers to her question?
Your pictures showed her how bad it can get, so advise her on how to prevent it. Both her and her tort would thank you for it.

1. Avoid any diet (or feeding quantity) that results in highly accelerated rates of growth. High growth rates are typically associated with greatly increased incidence of MBD (metabolic bone disease)

2. In practice, these means avoiding too much reliance on foods that are excessively high in protein content (which I would define as much above 10% on a dry matter basis), and any foods which are high in starch and carbohydrates, or in naturally occurring sugars (fruits, for example). Such foods also are typically very high in phosphorus, and low in calcium. Low fiber foods should also be generally avoided. Many commercially sold "complete" diets are not suitable. Avoid any with brans, grain-derivates and similar additives.

3. 99.9% of the natural diet of Mediterranean tortoises is comprised of very high fiber, varied wild flowers and "weeds". The fiber content is typically in the 30-40% range.

4. These tortoises are typically found in areas with calcium-rich soils. Their calcium intake is very high. Their phosphorus intake is quite low. Laboratory analysis with wild Testudo diets have revealed Calcium to Phosphorus ratios as high as 14:1. Many captive diets are very poor in this respect.

5. Natural UV-B from unfiltered sunlight is simply unbeatable. If this is difficult because of your location, you will need some form of artificial UVB lighting. This is a complex area in its own right. At this time, I feel florescent UVB tubes are a safer option in most situations than combined-heat-light sources. See the UV Guide for a more detailed discussion. There are various options, from mercury-vapor to metal halide - but all need to be installed correctly and used with care.

6. Basking lamps and radiant heat sources used at close range produce intense drying effects. This should be avoided. Humidity directly under basking lamps can fall to <15% and remain there as long as the lamp is in use. This is dangerously low. It it, I believe, a major, major contributor to physical 'pyramiding'.

7. Testudo species do not require super-high humidity. In nature, they experience typical levels from 32%-60%, with occasional periods where it is higher or lower for a short time. In captivity, if levels are in the 45-55% range (and drying effects from artificial heat sources are avoided), they are absolutely fine.

8. They should be housed in well-ventilated accommodation with sufficient space for exercise. A substrate should be provided that they are able to burrow into. A sand/soil mix has proved consistently safe and effective. The 'tortoise table' type habitat is vastly more suitable than any form of enclosed 'tank'. Outdoor housing is preferable whenever and as frequently as possible.

9. Fresh drinking water should be available to all captives. Daily soaking may be required in some captive environments.

10. Over-feeding with frequency and bulk is just as damaging as severe under-feeding or feeding unsuitable items and results in a number of diseases and conditions of excess: gout, renal failure and liver disease, for example.

That is a brief summary.

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I would add that there is a free booklet you can download on Mediterranean tortoises by a very experienced keeper in the UK. You may need to adapt some of the info to suit your local climate and conditions, but there is some very good advice there. Lin (the keeper) has studied wild tortoises in France, Tunisia and Turkey - and has been raising absolutely superb captive-bred offspring for over 20 years. No MBD. No 'pyramiding' - very healthy animals indeed.

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http://www.tortoiseforum.org/thread-84819-post-791734.html#pid791734

 

[Tom]

Thank you J. You are the master of finding this sort of thing.

So as high as 14:1. Thank you for the correction.

 

[Stoneman]

Everything you have posted above as facts, is actually opinion and some of it is highly debatable with lots of evidence to the contrary. It is also going to vary by species.

In two books on Hermanni and a essay style scientific paper on russians, they reported that wild torts of at least these two species often eat foods with calcium to phosphorous ratios of 12:1 or higher.

Protein intake is also highly debatable, and again, will depend on species. It has been reported that wild sulcata will eat carrion with gusto every opportunity they get, and captive observations support this. What about RFs, YFs or manouria?

I won't even get into your fruit recommendations... Suffice to say, I don't agree.

I understand the intent of your post, and I think in general following your advice won't hurt a tortoise, but some of your assertions are often repeated info, but not necessarily proven or correct.

What would you recommend for protein intake for Indian star tortoises? I have thought about adding a little soy or pea protein periodically to supplement protein. I have read alfalfa is good and has a lot of protein. Are there specific amino acids that are good, and others problematic?

 

[Tom]

What would you recommend for protein intake for Indian star tortoises? I have thought about adding a little soy or pea protein periodically to supplement protein. I have read alfalfa is good and has a lot of protein. Are there specific amino acids that are good, and others problematic?

Again, very little study has been done on this, so I can share only my opinion and experience on the matter. My opinion is influenced by my own experience and the experience of other tortoise keepers I've come into contact with.

For a long time, protein was a bit of a "boogeyman" for tortoise keepers and was thought to be the cause of pyramiding and a killer of tortoises. Turns out it has little to do with pyramiding and that dehydration is actually the real killer of tortoises, regardless of protein. The top breeder (Top as in most babies produced…) of sulcatas in this country feeds mostly bales of alfalfa. Not saying that is the way to go, but he's done this for years and his tortoises are alive and well and making lots of babies. In a conversation with Richard Fife, he told me that many captive tortoises have a protein deficient diet because people have been told for so long that any and all protein for tortoises is bad bad bad. Yet, in reality, this hasn't been the case. For my own herd, I grow alfalfa, several types of clover, and a few other legumes to feed to all of my tortoises. These items make up a relatively small percentage of their diet, but they all get some protein from them. I also feed Mazuri once or twice a week, and it contains a good amount of protein for my growing babies and egg producing females.

What do I recommend? I recommend balance. I recommend a wide variety of foods, with some of them being higher in protein. I recommend we avoid grocery store lettuce in favor of the right weeds, leaves, flowers and succulents. I also strongly recommend good hydration for every tortoise of every species.