California Desert Tortoise Eating Habits

[Brad9126]

I have two CA Desert Tortoises named Chopper and Harley. I've had Chopper for about 30 years and from day one have made my entire back yard her habitat. About a year ago I got another one who I named Harley, from a local exotic animal rescue. I have noticed that the Harley eats much more than Chopper. Since I don't know the age of Harley, I am wondering if Chopper eats less because of her age. I do remember that Chopper used to have a bigger appetite (like Harley does now) but the amount she eats has diminished slowly over the years. Can anyone confirm that older tortoises eat less than younger ones, or educate me on why Harley eats so much more than Chopper. Both are healthy and are active in every respect.

Thanks in advance,
Brad

 

[The_Four_Toed_Edward]

Are they kept together?

 

[Tom]

I have two CA Desert Tortoises named Chopper and Harley. I've had Chopper for about 30 years and from day one have made my entire back yard her habitat. About a year ago I got another one who I named Harley, from a local exotic animal rescue. I have noticed that the Harley eats much more than Chopper. Since I don't know the age of Harley, I am wondering if Chopper eats less because of her age. I do remember that Chopper used to have a bigger appetite (like Harley does now) but the amount she eats has diminished slowly over the years. Can anyone confirm that older tortoises eat less than younger ones, or educate me on why Harley eats so much more than Chopper. Both are healthy and are active in every respect.

Thanks in advance,
Brad

What are the sexes?
Are they housed separately?
Where in CA are you? Very different conversation for Palm Springs vs. Pacific Palisades.
Do they have a heated night shelter?

 

[Brad9126]

Are they kept together?

Yes. They both share my entire back yard (approx 3,200 sq ft). I made separate enclosures for them to sleep and brumate but oddly, they like to sleep together most of the time in either one.

 

[The_Four_Toed_Edward]

Tortoises don't do well in pairs. It is best to keep them solitary or in a group with the correct sex ratio. Sleeping together is common bullying for tortoises. It is like threatening the other one get out. Choppers appetite could have declined due to the stress of being housed together.

Could you answer @Tom s questions?
What are the sexes?
Where in CA are you?
Do they have a heated night shelter?

 

[Brad9126]

Thanks all for chiming in!

• They are both female (I'm assuming, due to no depression on the underside of either)
• I live in San Diego
• Their shelter is not heated

To comment on bullying:
When we got Harley, she bullied Chopper a fair amount by nudging and ramming her. Over the course of a month or so they seemed to get along and the bullying pretty much stopped. Occasionally they will nudge each other. It goes both ways, sometimes Harley nudges Chopper and sometimes the other way around. We witness this maybe once a month. My wife spends her mornings in the back yard where she can see them for an hour or so each day. They don't compete when we put out food for them.
My wife and I thought that them sleeping together was a sign of acceptance, not the other way around. They sleep together most of the time.

Their shelter:
It is subterranean but protected from flooding when it rains. It is split into two chambers with one entrance however, as I said, they both choose to sleep in the same chamber most of the time.

Attached is a photo of both of them at the entrance to their shelter. April this year.

 

[EppsDynasty]

@Brad9126 ... I am going to tell you somethings about Desert Tortoises and please remember you came here for help and answers.
Desert Tortoises are 'Solitary' animals, in the wild they are NEVER together. I am also in CA and have had several conversations with THE Desert Tortoise Biologist in charge of them in our state. They have only seen them together in a burrow 1 or 2 times in their 40+ year careers. It is not natural or fair to house them in any number other than 1, it is stressful, so no groups ever.
Even though you have had a DT for 30 years you have not had multiple together or multiple pens with DT's. I say this because people often think they are 'Behavior' experts because they have had 1 Tortoise. Their behavior is very hard to distinguish what 'They' are actually saying. A simple head bob which looks harmless is most likely an aggressive behavior, making 1 the bully and the other the subordinate, you would never know. Please don't get your feathers ruffled, before you think you are a Desert Tortoise expert you need to realize you are on a forum speaking with 'Real' experts who HAVE witnessed and studied tortoise behaviors.

While I was typing this up you responded above.
There is bullying still going on you just don't realize it. You will have a dead tortoise soon if you do not fix this problem. 1 will get a runny nose and start the downward spiral ending in death. You have a very short time to remedy this or you WILL lose 1 of them.

 

[Yvonne G]

It looks like you have a great desert tortoise habitat, with lots of space, but I also advise separating them. In nature desert tortoises only come together by accident. Each tortoise has its own territory. When they encroach on anothers' space there is either fighting or breeding, then each going its own way, unless one of them died in the fight.

I don't agree about the heated shelter. It is my opinion that if you live in the desert tortoise's natural area they don't need heat in their shelter. If you notice you're going to be having an unusually cold night just bring the tortoises in the house for the night (in a cardboard box).

 

[The_Four_Toed_Edward]

Sorry to say, I agree with others. Sleeping together in a burrow is actually bullying behaviour.

 

[Brad9126]

To all who have pinged in,
Thanks so much for the input. I, in no way, consider myself an expert or claim any other degree of authority on my beloved pets. I'm always learning and this is precisely why I joined the forum. I have a few questions to help me understand better. Sorry if they're long but I feel details are key in learning and more importantly, understanding. My mantra is "the first step in solving a problem is to understand it"

Sleeping together:
My wife and I always felt this was an expression of acceptance, however, being told by you folks it's actually a form of bullying can make sense in this respect: when they sleep in the same chamber, one is often on top of the other. Questions: Assuming the one on top is the bully: is the bullying act the one on top controlling the other by being on top? Can them being in the same chamber, but not on top of each other be construed as an act of bullying?

Relationship in general:
For the most part, like 98% of "the time my wife and I see them", they seem to do their own thing apart from each other. They often spend the nights apart in any of the numerous places around the property where they can nestle into a corner, under a plant, etc. When we do see them together they seem friendly enough and as I said before, they will only nudge each other every so often, as far as we know. I fully understand that when we aren't watching, who knows what can be going on! I guess my question is this: Is there any chance they can coexist on my property in a healthy happy manner? If so, please advise on steps I should take to make this happen. Could I make separate shelters for each as far apart as possible?

Runny nose:
When we got Harley (the newer addition) she had a runny nose. We took her to a reptile vet who prescribed antibiotics. Shortly after, Chopper developed the same runny nose. This was not the first time Chopper had this condition. She has been sick prior to Harley's arrival so we had some prior experience with that situation. I believe it took more than one course of antibiotics to get them both well and since then they are both apparently healthy - at least there are no more runny noses.
Questions: is the infection that causes the runny nose contagious? Is it likely that Chopper "caught" the cold from Harley, or is it anyone's opinion that Chopper was stressed and simply developed it on her own? Also, do you think Harley got the condition by being stressed out from her situation? I'll explain Harley's situation below.

Tortoise Age related questions:
Is there a way to tell their ages?
Is it possible that the younger tortoise is the more aggressive one and the older one is less likely to defend itself behaviorally? In the beginning, Chopper would tend to just walk away when Harley tried to nudge her. It has been my assumption that Harley is younger than Chopper based on this.
If you all think I'm correct about the ages, could this explain why Harley, the new comer, was the aggressive one vs Chopper who was well established and had lived in this habitat for so many years?

Harley's story as we know it:
We have a friend who does exotic animal rescue and is part of a small network of animal rescues in San Diego. This person received Harley from another rescue that had to close. Since they knew we had a CA DT, they thought we might be a good home for Harley. We do not know the circumstances that brought Harley to the first rescue, only that our friend had her for a matter of days before we decided to adopt her.

Thanks again for everyone's input and don't be afraid to pull any punches. My pets are beloved and my main concern is that they are happy and healthy. I continue to learn!

 

[Yvonne G]

Your tortoise yard is big enough to divide it down the middle with some sort of eye pleasing barrier.

The bully on top is telling the tort on the bottom, "This is my spot! Get the hell out!!"

Sometimes runny nose is just stress. Sometimes it's actually a respiratory infection. Sometimes it's caused by mycoplasma. The only way to know is have the discharge tested. Separating them so each has their own stress free environment will go a long way towards clearing up the runny nose.

Aggression isn't age related. It's mental and whichever one of them feels most strongly about it being their territory.

Impossible to know the age of tortoise. Sometimes you can get a general idea by counting growth rings, but tortoises don't just have one growth ring per year like a tree. Their growth rings coincide with the availability of food being plentiful or not. But it could give you a general idea.

I can tell you and your wife are smitten with these beasts. I am too. . . my favorite species!

 

[The_Four_Toed_Edward]

Questions: is the infection that causes the runny nose contagious? Is it likely that Chopper "caught" the cold from Harley, or is it anyone's opinion that Chopper was stressed and simply developed it on her own? Also, do you think Harley got the condition by being stressed out from her situation? I'll explain Harley's situation below.

Mycoplasma is contagious and the symptoms can be triggered by stress. I would get your tortoises tested like @Yvonne G recommends.