Can we take yet another Pyramiding post??

[Nay]

I have read with devote interest the 'p' debate and what causes it.
Also I see there are many schools of thought, but it seems most agreed somewhat with Tom, humidity plays a big role. Correct me, but I think Maggie is more it takes 3 things, humidity, diet and exercise, almost equally to avoid it.
OK, so can I ask something else?
I acquired my 2 adult RF's pretty badly pyramided. And of course that was pre-computer. I have changed even more things since I joined up here, with all you knowledgeable folks. I bought Nougat maybe a year ago, give or take,and for 20 dollars I got him, the aquarium, all the pine chips and even the dried roses he was fed. I have since that time kept him on eco earth mixed with potting soil. Spagnum long moss in his very humid hide, fed spring mix, grasses, flowers, veggies, mazuri, and everything else I can think of. He has a great size container that I move the food rock around so there is some assemblence of exercise. and while I have done all that I seem to think it has been the heat problem in the winter that has given my poor guy the dreaded "p". We keep our house pretty cold in the winter and getting the temps up has been an issue. I have his container on a table, with the lights right near where his hide is and to keep it warmer I have a sheet of that foil backed insulation "V'd" over a bar. I think I get it maybe 80. but that's it.
So,to my big question. Since I have had him a year, is this all from me? Or is the theory that it starts early something I couldn't tell,being he was on pine chips all his starting life? He definitely was not showing much signs when I got him. All the pics are from today, and he seems to be smoother on one side. What about that too??
. He has that extra scute on the side that is worse, could that be something??(By the way my spell check seems to think that scute is not a word am I losing it?)

http://picasaweb.google.com/NadineNat/Nougat02#5491678106077549538

http://picasaweb.google.com/NadineNat/Nougat02#5491678118982998850

http://picasaweb.google.com/NadineNat/Nougat02#5491678150117140002

http://picasaweb.google.com/NadineNat/Nougat02#5491678166386620578


Thoughts, any and all. I hate that I seemed to get knowledge then, look what I have done.
Thanks Na

 

[Tom]

Hi Na. I don't know redfoots very well. Its been a long time since I had one and the knowledge has advanced a lot since then. To clarify about where Maggie and I are different: She believes those three things are necessary to grow a smooth, healthy tortoise. She is right. I agree with her completely on that. My point is that you can grow a smooth, but unhealthy one, if it is wet and humid enough without the proper heat and exercise. Maggie's formula will grow a healthy smooth one, while I'm just talking about pyramiding alone.

I don't know what is going on with yours. Its unusual to see it asymmetrically like that. Here's some possibilities:
1. It was already started before you got him. Its VERY difficult to stop it. Might have nothing to do with you. In fact without the measures you took he might have turned out to be one of those grotesque examples we see from time to time.
2. It might be genetic or a congenital defect.
3. The shell looks pretty flat and a little deformed. Is MBD a possibility? Does he ever go outside. Do you supplement with calcium and or D3?

My routine for my sulcata hatchlings and my already pyramided 3 year old is: Daily warm water soaks, shell spraying several times a day, humid hides, damp substrate and high ambient room humidity. They get out for an hour or two of sun and exercise nearly every day in a big pen with damp substrate. Actually, now that I think about it, I've been soaking the babies before AND after their outside time. There is much debate about redfoots and basking/sunshine/D3. I don't know the answers on that one. Have you contacted Terry K on this? I've seen lots of pics of smooth ones that he has raised and I know that he advocates "spray them til they drip".

I used to think that I was keeping Daisy pretty humid, until I went really really humid. I had to make it swampy for months on end before I saw the pyramiding slow down and the newer growth start to look smoother.

 

[Redfoot NERD]

Tom is absolutely 100% correct about the healthy/smooth redfoots!

Of the couple hundred+/- hatchlings that I've "started".. those that I've kept at least a year are perfectly smooth! Those that I've kept 2,3,4 and 5 years are very smooth and healthy redfoots!

Of those that were sold and the new owners have kept in touch and claimed to have followed the care regime that I use and encourage have perfectly healthy redfoots.. but they aren't all perfectly smooth. When I ask them why they thought that was they all confess they didn't "Mist them til they drip" at least 2-3 times EVERY day. A few that left my care and returned were all healthy and had some degree of 'pyramiding'! - for the same reason.

So I am claiming that what goes on inside a redfoot has nothing to do with how smooth or pyramided the carapace is. And not to sound like I'm talking out of both sides of my mouth.. I have seem "deformed" carapaces and plastrons that were a direct result of poor diet!!!

What I see in your redfoot Na is both. What was done before you got him is done and the least you can do is care for him 'properly' from here on. The best you can do is care for him 'properly' from here on. Get the idea? What's done has been done.. you or I can't change that. Your responsibility is.. guess what? Care for him 'properly' from here on.

And you'll get the best care regime from someone that cares for redfoots. I like what Tom said.. you have to understand what he said - he does not keep redfoots so he said he does not know the best care for them.. just like I don't know "spurs" so I am not about to say I know how to care for them.

I've tried to demonstrate [ thru the text, pics and videos found in the links in my signature here ] how a redfoot can and will thrive. It works for me and everyone that I know that has followed it.

Hope this helps...

NERD

 

[Nay]

Hi, thanks for the responses. Just to answer the couple questions, yes he is outside, and the substrate is like a swamp with daily wetting, 2-3 times a day. no, sometimes twice, but I'll see if I can get another couple in, yes calcium,not with D3.
So I am not sure if the heat during the winter, not being up there is a major problem of not now?
Thanks Na

 

[Kristina]

Okay, I see something completely different when I look at that tortoise. I do not see a deformity or MBD. With MBD, there is a distinct slope towards the back, and the scutes have a tendency to lean in towards each other.

What I see on Nougat is some pretty severe pyramiding - with SMOOTHER growth around it. His carapace isn't flat, there isn't anything wrong with it, it is just now growing smoother, where before it was pyramided very badly.

Think of a lot of the BIG Sulcatas that you see that have an over all smooth shell, but with a tiny "point" in the center of each scute. That is what Nougat will look like as he matures, as long as he continues to grow smooth. The reason his carapace looks so odd is that his pyramided growth was replaced suddenly with smoother growth.

Now, I do have to say that he does not look perfectly smooth. His growth is still somewhat elevated. I would take to misting him as often as you can. My bigger tortoises get the sprinkler once a day (unless it rains) and my baby gets a good wetting 3-4 times a day.

How big is Nougat? He looks about the size of my little one.