Just speaking as a parent...if I allow my child to purchase or adopt a pet then I know it is ultimately MY RESPONSIBILITY. After all as parents we have the means/money to provide for it and hopefully the insight and experience to step in if there's a problem.
Chevy thread comments/age appropiate etc.
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Hey Onarock I called some vets sadly they are all closed until Friday or Saturday that Kirkman vet sounds promising so I hope to call him on Friday 
Marty333 said:Hey Onarock I called some vets sadly they are all closed until Friday or Saturday that Kirkman vet sounds promising so I hope to call him on Friday
Well do what you can and tell them what your situation is. Be upfront and tell them you cant pay for this, but your willing to work something out. Most vets are animal lovers and they just might respect your honesty. Its all you can do right now unless you can convince your dad otherwise. I knew a person a long time ago that was in a similar situation your in but with a barn owl. It needed help and he had no money. He ended up trading work at the vet for vet services and now hes a vet. Dont be afraid to ask the worse thing that can happen is they'll say no. Just keep him warm and hydrated untill Friday then get on the phone and work some magic. Its been done before. Good luck
I would like everyone to step back and to remember that Laura posted this thread in the Debatable Topics forum. We're not here to debate Kenny, or Katerina or any ONE PERSON.
I personally was thinking along Kenny's lines long before he ever said anything about it. He's a bigger man than I was because he brought it all out into the open.
I don't think baby tortoises should be handled all that much. And I think that Chevy's eyes being closed in so many pictures truly show that he was starting to become pretty stressed out.
This is all water under the bridge now. Katerina is doing the best she or anyone else can do to bring Chevy back to health, and hopefully she will be able to find a vet that will take a look at the tortoise and not charge Katerina an arm and a leg to do it.
Kenny, please don't think that you've done anything wrong. You've admitted to an error in judgment, but the overall post was not in error, in my opinion. I'm sure there were more of us that wanted to say something about it and didn't have the guts.
Katerina, do your best with Chevy. We're all in your corner. I only wish I lived closer so I could be of more assistance to you.
I personally was thinking along Kenny's lines long before he ever said anything about it. He's a bigger man than I was because he brought it all out into the open.
I don't think baby tortoises should be handled all that much. And I think that Chevy's eyes being closed in so many pictures truly show that he was starting to become pretty stressed out.
This is all water under the bridge now. Katerina is doing the best she or anyone else can do to bring Chevy back to health, and hopefully she will be able to find a vet that will take a look at the tortoise and not charge Katerina an arm and a leg to do it.
Kenny, please don't think that you've done anything wrong. You've admitted to an error in judgment, but the overall post was not in error, in my opinion. I'm sure there were more of us that wanted to say something about it and didn't have the guts.
Katerina, do your best with Chevy. We're all in your corner. I only wish I lived closer so I could be of more assistance to you.
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So I have been hearing how you say in most of the pics I have of Chevy his eyes are closed. Well I looked through all my Chevy pictures I've posted and only a handful of them his eyes are closed. The recent ones yes his eyes are closed because he has been sick. Just my thought
Certainly everyone is entitled to their opinion, but no one should be getting upset if someone else's opinion is that they don't like your opinion.
I was working in the retail pet trade at the tender age of 14 and telling adults how to house and care for a multitude of animals, including reptiles and fish. I was keeping and breeding my own aquarium fish at age thirteen. I had no help from my parents, in fact I had to fight with them just to be ALLOWED to do it on my own. We're talking big tanks 100-135 gallons. I got my first sulcata at 19. I was living at home, going to a local Junior college, and working full time at another pet shop.
It worked out just fine for me and my torts and I think things are going to work out just fine for Katerina too. IF (big IF) Chevy doesn't make it, it will have nothing to do with Katerina's age.
Tortoises live for so long that no plan is going to last as long as our relationships with them. Sounds to me like Katerina has as good a plan as anyone I know.
I was working in the retail pet trade at the tender age of 14 and telling adults how to house and care for a multitude of animals, including reptiles and fish. I was keeping and breeding my own aquarium fish at age thirteen. I had no help from my parents, in fact I had to fight with them just to be ALLOWED to do it on my own. We're talking big tanks 100-135 gallons. I got my first sulcata at 19. I was living at home, going to a local Junior college, and working full time at another pet shop.
It worked out just fine for me and my torts and I think things are going to work out just fine for Katerina too. IF (big IF) Chevy doesn't make it, it will have nothing to do with Katerina's age.
Tortoises live for so long that no plan is going to last as long as our relationships with them. Sounds to me like Katerina has as good a plan as anyone I know.
THis topic could go all sorts of ways with hundreds of opinions. I put it out there to open up discussion and to make people think..
1. Animal Shelters are FULL of dogs from people who have every excuse under the sun. Too large, too wild, no time, moving, going away to school etc.. so its not just torts that people make un educated or bad decisions with.
2. owning warm weather animals in cold climates.. something to consider as well. Dont be selfish.
3. age of owner. Torts live a long time. As long as you make as best plans as possible and be realistic. ( reality Sucks sometimes) and have back up plans or some sort of plan.
4. Cost.. life can change at the drop of a hat.. but you really need to have some sort of stability in order to give proper care. Save for a rainy day.
5.age#2.. You are an adult at 18. Under that... your parents are responsible for you and your animals care. If it needs vet care, the parent needs to provide it. If you want to make your child responsible to pay you back, payment plan, chores etc.. and make it a learning lesson. GREAT! kids need to learn that.. but the animal should not suffer because the Kid cant afford it. If YOU cant.. then chose a different pet.. all part of the learning lesson..
Kenny I agree with most of your opinions.. I see way too much, and just dont get what people are thinking half the time.. just look at Craigs List and see all the dogs needing homes and the excuses people make.. and the animals suffer for it..
No one was being singled out.. it was the timing that made it look like it.. but i just wanted to Use it to start a discussion.. We are all here to learn and support.. and we are learning from this as well.
now.. Go Over the River and thru the woods, to grand mas house.. or where ever you are going for the Holidays and have SAFE travels. everyone!!
1. Animal Shelters are FULL of dogs from people who have every excuse under the sun. Too large, too wild, no time, moving, going away to school etc.. so its not just torts that people make un educated or bad decisions with.
2. owning warm weather animals in cold climates.. something to consider as well. Dont be selfish.
3. age of owner. Torts live a long time. As long as you make as best plans as possible and be realistic. ( reality Sucks sometimes) and have back up plans or some sort of plan.
4. Cost.. life can change at the drop of a hat.. but you really need to have some sort of stability in order to give proper care. Save for a rainy day.
5.age#2.. You are an adult at 18. Under that... your parents are responsible for you and your animals care. If it needs vet care, the parent needs to provide it. If you want to make your child responsible to pay you back, payment plan, chores etc.. and make it a learning lesson. GREAT! kids need to learn that.. but the animal should not suffer because the Kid cant afford it. If YOU cant.. then chose a different pet.. all part of the learning lesson..
Kenny I agree with most of your opinions.. I see way too much, and just dont get what people are thinking half the time.. just look at Craigs List and see all the dogs needing homes and the excuses people make.. and the animals suffer for it..
No one was being singled out.. it was the timing that made it look like it.. but i just wanted to Use it to start a discussion.. We are all here to learn and support.. and we are learning from this as well.
now.. Go Over the River and thru the woods, to grand mas house.. or where ever you are going for the Holidays and have SAFE travels. everyone!!
children would not have reptiles nor would any of us,if they werent taken from there habitat's for profit.my position is simple i agree with both sides,she may be in over her head do too money and logistics,but she's inteligent and responsible enough too seek information.and went far enough too find the right place for it.i was 5 when my parents took me too get a goldfish,i insisted on a newt,his name was skippy and he didnt live long,but that was the beginning,i was 8 when i caught my first eastern milk snake,he lived a little longer than skippy,and i learned.the thing is if this girl didnt have this tortoise it might be in a fish tank of water somewhere with a slider,so save the tort and dont discourage the girl.this forum can't provide good homes for all out there but it can help the lucky ones. just my opinion good luck john
I'll be honest too, and it was hard for me to say something myself. In the end, I decided to take the risk that I would offend Katerina, and posted my opinion that Chevy was being handled too much and that he was stressed and tired.
I don't have a lot of experience with baby tortoises. But I do have experience with sick and stressed animals, of all kinds, babies too, and that is what the pictures showed me. Part of it was the closed eyes. The other part was just gut feeling that something was "off" with Chevy.
Katerina has learned a hard lesson. *I* feel guilty because if I had said something sooner, maybe Chevy wouldn't have gotten to this point.
I think what all of us need to understand is that sometimes, things are going to be said that you don't like. You might feel insulted. But what you need to figure out is what the INTENT of the person saying that hurtful thing is - is it TRULY to be hurtful, or are they actually trying to help?
Not everyone is born with the tact handbook hanging from our wrist. We all speak to each other through pure text - it is very hard to convey tone. I have taken things the wrong way when people have meant absolutely no harm. I jumped all over Tom once because I thought he was jumping on me, and I was very wrong. It has happened the other way around too. People thought I was jumping on them, when really I was just maybe in a hurry and trying to get some info posted really fast and didn't "buffer" what I was saying enough. Or they just misunderstood.
I don't think that everyone of a specific age should be painted with the same brush. I was 12 when I started this hobby. I did some things I shouldn't have (letting Gomer roam around my room, exposing him to my dog, and using a heat rock mainly.) But I cared enough that I started doing some major research, built a website about tortoise care and now here I am 17 years later. I spent time every night at 12 yrs. old cutting up his dinner, I built his outdoor pen by myself, he came with me when I moved out, and even though my daughter was only 3 when he was killed by a predator, she remembers me taking care of him.
Then again, NOT all children are that responsible. Katie (my youngest) helps me take care of her baby Box turtle, Tiffany. MacKenzie (my oldest) hasn't even named hers. Would I plop a tortoise in Mac's room and say here, take care of this? Absolutely not. How about Katie? No, because she is only seven. However, in a few years, with me checking up on her of course, would I trust her to do it? Sure.
I know a girl that married very young (15) and moved out. She got a puppy. When they brought the puppy home, she was housebroken. Shadow (the puppy) would go sit by the door, and wait for someone to let her out. They didn't come, and finally she couldn't hold it anymore. She peed on the floor, so she was spanked. Next time, she waited by the door. They didn't come so she pooped on the floor and she was spanked. 8 months later a Cockapoo was dropped off at my doorstep (she didn't even have a name, I called her Shadow) that was such a ridiculous neurological mess that it would make you cry. If you moved to fast, she got scared and submissively urinated. She had been locked in a storage tote to keep her from going on the floor. (It was a happy ending, I had her housebroken in a week, she stopped being scared and went to live with an old man who had lost his wife, was lonely and needed a friend.)
My point? That is one person I would not allow to have a pet, no matter what their age! What about all the adults that flat out ABUSE animals? Where does age come into play there?
The purpose of this forum is to share information, and to educate. Over and over there has been the mantra of "everyone is entitled to their own opinion," which is absolutely true. I don't think what Kenny said in itself was wrong; it was his opinion. I do think the delivery was a little off. But really, are we going to ostracize someone for a mistake? Katrina accepted the apology. What else is there really to say?
I don't have a lot of experience with baby tortoises. But I do have experience with sick and stressed animals, of all kinds, babies too, and that is what the pictures showed me. Part of it was the closed eyes. The other part was just gut feeling that something was "off" with Chevy.
Katerina has learned a hard lesson. *I* feel guilty because if I had said something sooner, maybe Chevy wouldn't have gotten to this point.
I think what all of us need to understand is that sometimes, things are going to be said that you don't like. You might feel insulted. But what you need to figure out is what the INTENT of the person saying that hurtful thing is - is it TRULY to be hurtful, or are they actually trying to help?
Not everyone is born with the tact handbook hanging from our wrist. We all speak to each other through pure text - it is very hard to convey tone. I have taken things the wrong way when people have meant absolutely no harm. I jumped all over Tom once because I thought he was jumping on me, and I was very wrong. It has happened the other way around too. People thought I was jumping on them, when really I was just maybe in a hurry and trying to get some info posted really fast and didn't "buffer" what I was saying enough. Or they just misunderstood.
I don't think that everyone of a specific age should be painted with the same brush. I was 12 when I started this hobby. I did some things I shouldn't have (letting Gomer roam around my room, exposing him to my dog, and using a heat rock mainly.) But I cared enough that I started doing some major research, built a website about tortoise care and now here I am 17 years later. I spent time every night at 12 yrs. old cutting up his dinner, I built his outdoor pen by myself, he came with me when I moved out, and even though my daughter was only 3 when he was killed by a predator, she remembers me taking care of him.
Then again, NOT all children are that responsible. Katie (my youngest) helps me take care of her baby Box turtle, Tiffany. MacKenzie (my oldest) hasn't even named hers. Would I plop a tortoise in Mac's room and say here, take care of this? Absolutely not. How about Katie? No, because she is only seven. However, in a few years, with me checking up on her of course, would I trust her to do it? Sure.
I know a girl that married very young (15) and moved out. She got a puppy. When they brought the puppy home, she was housebroken. Shadow (the puppy) would go sit by the door, and wait for someone to let her out. They didn't come, and finally she couldn't hold it anymore. She peed on the floor, so she was spanked. Next time, she waited by the door. They didn't come so she pooped on the floor and she was spanked. 8 months later a Cockapoo was dropped off at my doorstep (she didn't even have a name, I called her Shadow) that was such a ridiculous neurological mess that it would make you cry. If you moved to fast, she got scared and submissively urinated. She had been locked in a storage tote to keep her from going on the floor. (It was a happy ending, I had her housebroken in a week, she stopped being scared and went to live with an old man who had lost his wife, was lonely and needed a friend.)
My point? That is one person I would not allow to have a pet, no matter what their age! What about all the adults that flat out ABUSE animals? Where does age come into play there?
The purpose of this forum is to share information, and to educate. Over and over there has been the mantra of "everyone is entitled to their own opinion," which is absolutely true. I don't think what Kenny said in itself was wrong; it was his opinion. I do think the delivery was a little off. But really, are we going to ostracize someone for a mistake? Katrina accepted the apology. What else is there really to say?
I think I was pretty clear. I called out everyone in the lower 48 who are of the opinion that tortoise keeping is for those of a certain age or those with large yards for certain species. I dont think thats right. So I'm going a step further and saying to anyone who has to move their tortoises inside and out day after day subjecting them to unnecissary stress, long term winter artificial lighting and unnatural feeding is being cruel and inhumane. Apologies or not. Kenny did apologize and I think thats great, but there are those who agreed with him that did not. Do I really think that keeping tortoises is a matter of geography? The answer is NO! I'm just trying to make a point in that tortoise keeping is for everyone not the select few. We are learning that unnatural dieting and unnatural lighting can lead to future problems and just because Martys problem is more accute doent mean young people and certain others dont have the right to keep tortoses. There is a reason that when talking about people who keep CDT at their homes tell stories of how their mom or dad or neighbor had the group or the individual for 50-60 years before they inherited it. I think its because of all the tortoises we keep we are able to keep those in a more natural environment. So, untill we all have replicas of the native lands fom wich our tortoises come from then none of us has the right to judge others. Peace
I only know marty through her posts, and to be honest she seems more capable than most people i meet in my life, with that being said I wonder how it falls on the legal side, can someone under 18 purchase an animal, any animal? I am pretty sure animal shelters don't do it. O am happy he is taking responsibility, but as we always say hatchlings are not easy to keep even for experienced keepers. so now where does the legal responsibility fall, even a very capable 15 year old is still 15, not an adult, I am not trying to knock her, just trying to get a feel for the issue. How is chevy doing? I am one of these who also believe a turtle or tortoise needs to be handled as little as possible.
onarock said:
That was awsome that you did that for her. Thank you..If i lived in FL i would have taken her myself. I am glad someone was looking out for her and Chevys best intrest. Thank you!!!
onarock said:
There's already a thread to save the tortoise... This isn't it.
squamata said:
Again, this is not the thread to save the tortoise.
emysemys said:
Yay!!!! Somebody else gets it. This is not the thread to save the tortoise.
squamata said:
When you were 8, we weren't in the information age. You couldn't google, and there weren't forums.
Livingstone said:
You truncated my post. I do go on to debate. I was setting up my position. I think it clear "the lower 48". I didnt debate one person I took a position against many. You should read on I have 2 or 3 on here. Yayyy!!!! Oh and if you read the other post to save the tort I posted there to. I actually made calls to Orlando from Hawaii to find a vet for said tortoise at possibly reduced, probono, or payment plan for Marty. I guess I should have just sat around and criticized. But its nice of you to show of your refereeing skills. Yay. I get it too. a hui ho
onarock said:
its obvious you havent been reading posts just attacking people,another sea lawyer on a soap box!go back and read the other thread, and read the title of this thread while your at it,its pretty clear it doesn't read should torts only be kept in hawaii!if you want too start a thread you enter a title in the little box,speak your piece,and then click on the little box at the bottom,am glad i could help you out with that,take care
I have NO idea what is going on, I read the first 5 posts on this thread.
I will come back later when I have more time to see what has happened to Chevy for him to be sick and his enclosure..
If the enclosure it good and Chevy is sick due to anything but neglect..
As far as one day maybe Marty going off to college or staying in her home town, or flying to the moon. At 15 she is old enough & seems mature enough to look after a 'tortoise'!!
Let's face it life makes twists and turns for all of us...
I had all the best intentions in the world of living out my life in Canada but my husband got a job out of the country.
I advertised Olive and carefully went through the people that wanted to adopt her and contacted the person that really seemed to know about tortoises and who really wanted her..
Yes I know it's not great to have to rehome a pet,, but shi* happens..
So at the end of the day a week or two before whatever it is Marty is going to move away and go where ever it is she can't bring her 50lb sully then I'm sure she will do the best she can to find it a great home.. but in the mean time what is wrong with her raising him?
Again I don't know all the details but I don't think it's fair to say she should never have got it in the first place.. especially how much time she has put into learning about his care...
I will come back later when I have more time to see what has happened to Chevy for him to be sick and his enclosure..
If the enclosure it good and Chevy is sick due to anything but neglect..
As far as one day maybe Marty going off to college or staying in her home town, or flying to the moon. At 15 she is old enough & seems mature enough to look after a 'tortoise'!!
Let's face it life makes twists and turns for all of us...
I had all the best intentions in the world of living out my life in Canada but my husband got a job out of the country.
I advertised Olive and carefully went through the people that wanted to adopt her and contacted the person that really seemed to know about tortoises and who really wanted her..
Yes I know it's not great to have to rehome a pet,, but shi* happens..
So at the end of the day a week or two before whatever it is Marty is going to move away and go where ever it is she can't bring her 50lb sully then I'm sure she will do the best she can to find it a great home.. but in the mean time what is wrong with her raising him?
Again I don't know all the details but I don't think it's fair to say she should never have got it in the first place.. especially how much time she has put into learning about his care...
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I don't even know whats going on anymore..................
Well, I don't mean to put words in the OP's mouth, but I'm thinking this was supposed to be a debate about how old do we thinks kids should be in order to be able to take care of animals on their own. Should the parents still be responsible or is it all on the youngster?
My answer would be that it truly depends upon the youngster. I had three children. I wouldn't give sole responsibility of caring for a pet to any one of them. They just weren't mature enough to understand and be able to handle it. However, I DO know some youngsters who are VERY responsible and I wouldn't worry about the animal one bit in their care...just not my kids!
And as to the other part of the equation, if a parent tells the kid that it is ok to have a pet, but the youngster has to do all the work, that's fine. I still think that when it comes to vet care the parent is responsible to pay for that. The youngster might be able to do odd jobs or save up allowance to buy food and supplies, but vet care costs a lot more than odd jobs and allowance.
My answer would be that it truly depends upon the youngster. I had three children. I wouldn't give sole responsibility of caring for a pet to any one of them. They just weren't mature enough to understand and be able to handle it. However, I DO know some youngsters who are VERY responsible and I wouldn't worry about the animal one bit in their care...just not my kids!
And as to the other part of the equation, if a parent tells the kid that it is ok to have a pet, but the youngster has to do all the work, that's fine. I still think that when it comes to vet care the parent is responsible to pay for that. The youngster might be able to do odd jobs or save up allowance to buy food and supplies, but vet care costs a lot more than odd jobs and allowance.
Marty333 said:
See if I can help. You posted a thread about Chevy being sick. The post started turning into a debate on what qualifies people to keep tortoises such as age, experienc, yard, ETC., ETC.. As a result, someone moved the debate part of the thread to its own thread titled
Chevy thread comments/age appropriate ETC. Now it seems there are some Johnny come lateleys that were not paying attention to your original thread or this thread. They read the tilte of this thread and leave out the ETC. part, they dont read that. I think she put the ETC. in this thread because we had been debating stuff not only pertaining to age. So now we are no longer debating "age appropriate ETC." We are now being moderated by people who just read the "age appropriate" and not the "ETC." Yay Yay. Someone finally gets it. So I dont know where its going now. I guess we have to wait untill those who moderate and those who referee read your original thread and completely read the title to this thread. Then maybe we can get back on subject. Happy Thanksgiving!! Oh wait, Sorry that wasnt appropriate for this thread there is already a thread about Thanksgiving, sorry, regards
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