Cracks between scutes?

ajawayj

New Member
Joined
Mar 26, 2020
Messages
12
Location (City and/or State)
West Midlands
Hello,
We’ve had Stan about 5 years (he’s about 13) and only recently started to properly pay attention to him (he belongs to me brother but I’ve adopted him lol). Anyway, I noticed that there are cracks in between scutes on his shell and I don’t know why...?

we feed him mixed greens incl romaine lettuce (I think), spinach, etc (like mixed greens from Tesco) and a calcium supplement on top. He also gets red pepper, dandelions, carrot peel and apple sometimes. I bath him weekly and we try not to keep him in his tank for too long.

I’ve been trying my best but I’m really worried about the cracks. I’ve attached photos, if theyre of any use. My mum doesn’t want to take him to a vet and I can’t drive so can’t get there. What should I do...?!image.jpgimage.jpgimage.jpg
 

Tom

The Dog Trainer
10 Year Member!
Platinum Tortoise Club
Joined
Jan 9, 2010
Messages
63,269
Location (City and/or State)
Southern California
You have what is called pyramiding and also some metabolic bone disease. The pyramiding is cause by growth in conditions that are too dry. People typically use the wrong bulbs and substrate, usually on the mistaken advice of a pet store, and those "cracks" are the result. These tortoises need good hydration, a humid hide, and moderate humidity in their enclosure. The way the vertebral scutes are sunken in and malformed is an indicator of MBD. This is when they don't get enough D3 in their diet or from a good UV source, and/or their diet is poor and lacking calcium.

If you tell us what type of heating and lighting you are using, we can suggest improvements. A picture of the enclosure will also give us more info to work with to help.

The diet can be improved right off the bat. No carrots and no fruit. Grocery store greens by themselves make for a poor tortoise diet. They lack fiber, some lack calcium, and some have deleterious compounds than can cause harm in large enough quantities, like the oxalic acid in spinach that binds with calcium and makes it unavailable to the tortoise. They best diet is a large assortment of broadleaf weeds and leaves. If you must use grocery store foods, favor endive and escarole. Use dandelion greens, arugula, cilantro, kale, collard, mustard and turnip greens, and many other for occasional variety. Amend these grocery store greens by adding in something with high fiber like soaked ZooMed Grassland pellets, or soaked horse hay grass cubes. Just use a small amount of these new foods and take a few weeks to gradually introduce them to the tortoise. It is ver unlikely that the tortoise will just walk up and eat these new things on day one.

Lastly, this is posted under the Russian tortoise forum, but your tortoise is either a Hermanni or a greek. No matter, as care is essentially the same, but wanted to make sure you knew.
 

ajawayj

New Member
Joined
Mar 26, 2020
Messages
12
Location (City and/or State)
West Midlands
You have what is called pyramiding and also some metabolic bone disease. The pyramiding is cause by growth in conditions that are too dry. People typically use the wrong bulbs and substrate, usually on the mistaken advice of a pet store, and those "cracks" are the result. These tortoises need good hydration, a humid hide, and moderate humidity in their enclosure. The way the vertebral scutes are sunken in and malformed is an indicator of MBD. This is when they don't get enough D3 in their diet or from a good UV source, and/or their diet is poor and lacking calcium.

If you tell us what type of heating and lighting you are using, we can suggest improvements. A picture of the enclosure will also give us more info to work with to help.

The diet can be improved right off the bat. No carrots and no fruit. Grocery store greens by themselves make for a poor tortoise diet. They lack fiber, some lack calcium, and some have deleterious compounds than can cause harm in large enough quantities, like the oxalic acid in spinach that binds with calcium and makes it unavailable to the tortoise. They best diet is a large assortment of broadleaf weeds and leaves. If you must use grocery store foods, favor endive and escarole. Use dandelion greens, arugula, cilantro, kale, collard, mustard and turnip greens, and many other for occasional variety. Amend these grocery store greens by adding in something with high fiber like soaked ZooMed Grassland pellets, or soaked horse hay grass cubes. Just use a small amount of these new foods and take a few weeks to gradually introduce them to the tortoise. It is ver unlikely that the tortoise will just walk up and eat these new things on day one.

Lastly, this is posted under the Russian tortoise forum, but your tortoise is either a Hermanni or a greek. No matter, as care is essentially the same, but wanted to make sure you knew.

Thank you for your great response!!! We didn’t have him in his tank much over winter and he hasn’t been being bathed very much at all in the years we’ve had him. Should I continue bathing him weekly, or increase it? I’ll also put him under the UV more frequently.

I’ve taken note of your recommendations for food and we’ll change it ASAP.

i‘M including photos of the enclosure and the packaging for the UV bulb. really hoping that Stan can get better - is this reversible/treatable?

Lastly, my mum was very confused about him not being a Russian lol. He was bought as a Horsefield from a breeder and my friend has a Hermann that is much lighter and much smaller than Stan. But who knows! image.jpgimage.jpgimage.jpg
 

Tom

The Dog Trainer
10 Year Member!
Platinum Tortoise Club
Joined
Jan 9, 2010
Messages
63,269
Location (City and/or State)
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All constructive criticism here. In order to make things better, I need to tell you what is wrong.
  • That type of UV bulb is ineffective. Using those bulbs coupled with the wrong diet and being indoors all winter, means your tortoise isn't getting any UV, and can't make the necessary D3. To make matters worse, some of those bulbs burn their eyes. They shouldn't be sold or used. Arcadia makes a great 12% HO tube that will give your tortoise the much needed UV and last a long time too. The right foods and supplements can also help with this.
  • Colored bulbs shouldn't be used for tortoises. They see colors better than we do and they do do well living in a red world. Use a flood bulb for a day time basking lamp.
  • Spot bulbs concentrate too much heat and desiccating IR-A into too small of an area, and they contribute to pyramiding.
  • Your Pets At Home substrate is dangerous and too dry. Putting limestone bits in the substrate and encouraging tortoises to eat their sandy substrate to satisfy calcium cravings is/was a terrible idea. That stuff should be taken off the market just like the cfl UV bulbs. You need some coco coir, or some fine grade orchid bark in there. Use a good 3-4 inch layer and keep it damp. This will add some moderate humidity and keep the carapace from getting worse.
  • That tank was fine when he was a baby, but he needs a much larger enclosure now. Something around 4x8' for indoors, and hopefully larger for the outdoor enclosure during fair weather. They should never be roaming loose on the floor. This practice usually ends in disaster.
Please don't be discouraged. No one is born knowing this stuff, and the pet stores steer people the wrong way as a matter of course. Its great that you are here and trying to improve things, and we are happy to help.

Read these for the care info:
 

ajawayj

New Member
Joined
Mar 26, 2020
Messages
12
Location (City and/or State)
West Midlands
All constructive criticism here. In order to make things better, I need to tell you what is wrong.
  • That type of UV bulb is ineffective. Using those bulbs coupled with the wrong diet and being indoors all winter, means your tortoise isn't getting any UV, and can't make the necessary D3. To make matters worse, some of those bulbs burn their eyes. They shouldn't be sold or used. Arcadia makes a great 12% HO tube that will give your tortoise the much needed UV and last a long time too. The right foods and supplements can also help with this.
  • Colored bulbs shouldn't be used for tortoises. They see colors better than we do and they do do well living in a red world. Use a flood bulb for a day time basking lamp.
  • Spot bulbs concentrate too much heat and desiccating IR-A into too small of an area, and they contribute to pyramiding.
  • Your Pets At Home substrate is dangerous and too dry. Putting limestone bits in the substrate and encouraging tortoises to eat their sandy substrate to satisfy calcium cravings is/was a terrible idea. That stuff should be taken off the market just like the cfl UV bulbs. You need some coco coir, or some fine grade orchid bark in there. Use a good 3-4 inch layer and keep it damp. This will add some moderate humidity and keep the carapace from getting worse.
  • That tank was fine when he was a baby, but he needs a much larger enclosure now. Something around 4x8' for indoors, and hopefully larger for the outdoor enclosure during fair weather. They should never be roaming loose on the floor. This practice usually ends in disaster.
Please don't be discouraged. No one is born knowing this stuff, and the pet stores steer people the wrong way as a matter of course. Its great that you are here and trying to improve things, and we are happy to help.

Read these for the care info:


Thank you again!!!!!! We're looking at getting what we can. I immediately went out to look for the new diet stuff but everyone in the UK is in quarantine at the moment so it's a struggle, but I've got some dandelions for him.

Thank you for your comments on the lamps. We're looking at the UV one now, and the new substrate too (how could you tell it was Pets at Home? Magic).

I've also brought out my plant mister for my succulents and will be spraying Stan and his enclosure to try and increase humidity.

Not too sure what we can do about tank size at the moment either, but we're rigging up an enclosure for summer, so I'll make sure that's massive :D

Thank you again! I only want what's best for the lil guy.
 

ajawayj

New Member
Joined
Mar 26, 2020
Messages
12
Location (City and/or State)
West Midlands
I've got a question about the tube lamp....we can't work out how it would be fixed to the tank. Do you know if there's a special adaptor, or attachment for the tube lamp?
 

Tom

The Dog Trainer
10 Year Member!
Platinum Tortoise Club
Joined
Jan 9, 2010
Messages
63,269
Location (City and/or State)
Southern California
I've got a question about the tube lamp....we can't work out how it would be fixed to the tank. Do you know if there's a special adaptor, or attachment for the tube lamp?
I usually make something out of wood or PVC pipe to hang things over the enclosure. This will also allow you to hang your basking lamp and adjust the height up or down to get the correct basking temperature.
 

Claireabella1973

New Member
Joined
Sep 16, 2018
Messages
2
Location (City and/or State)
Nottinghamshire
Hello,
We’ve had Stan about 5 years (he’s about 13) and only recently started to properly pay attention to him (he belongs to me brother but I’ve adopted him lol). Anyway, I noticed that there are cracks in between scutes on his shell and I don’t know why...?

we feed him mixed greens incl romaine lettuce (I think), spinach, etc (like mixed greens from Tesco) and a calcium supplement on top. He also gets red pepper, dandelions, carrot peel and apple sometimes. I bath him weekly and we try not to keep him in his tank for too long.

I’ve been trying my best but I’m really worried about the cracks. I’ve attached photos, if theyre of any use. My mum doesn’t want to take him to a vet and I can’t drive so can’t get there. What should I do...?!View attachment 288866View attachment 288867View attachment 288868
Please request to join Tortoise Addicts on FB!!!!! You will receive ALL help and support you need! May I recommend sooner rather than later! Their sister site is Tortoise Plant Addicts you will also get all the help you need to identify safe weeds and flowers!! Do what's right for your shelled friend!! Please join those groups!! ?? It's the only place you can trust for proper advice and help!!!! ??
 

Tom

The Dog Trainer
10 Year Member!
Platinum Tortoise Club
Joined
Jan 9, 2010
Messages
63,269
Location (City and/or State)
Southern California
Please request to join Tortoise Addicts on FB!!!!! You will receive ALL help and support you need! May I recommend sooner rather than later! Their sister site is Tortoise Plant Addicts you will also get all the help you need to identify safe weeds and flowers!! Do what's right for your shelled friend!! Please join those groups!! ?? It's the only place you can trust for proper advice and help!!!! ??
No no no. You've got this backwards. Those FB groups are run by nuts. They have closed minds, and ban people who try to promote new and better knowledge. They parrot all the old incorrect info and make up things that are clearly false. When presented with clear and obvious proof that what they are saying is false, they block the presenter. Not the way to go.

Why would you join a tortoise forum and then tell someone to leave and go to another site for help and info? Bad form.
 

myk

Active Member
Joined
Oct 4, 2023
Messages
119
Location (City and/or State)
London ontario
You have what is called pyramiding and also some metabolic bone disease. The pyramiding is cause by growth in conditions that are too dry. People typically use the wrong bulbs and substrate, usually on the mistaken advice of a pet store, and those "cracks" are the result. These tortoises need good hydration, a humid hide, and moderate humidity in their enclosure. The way the vertebral scutes are sunken in and malformed is an indicator of MBD. This is when they don't get enough D3 in their diet or from a good UV source, and/or their diet is poor and lacking calcium.

If you tell us what type of heating and lighting you are using, we can suggest improvements. A picture of the enclosure will also give us more info to work with to help.

The diet can be improved right off the bat. No carrots and no fruit. Grocery store greens by themselves make for a poor tortoise diet. They lack fiber, some lack calcium, and some have deleterious compounds than can cause harm in large enough quantities, like the oxalic acid in spinach that binds with calcium and makes it unavailable to the tortoise. They best diet is a large assortment of broadleaf weeds and leaves. If you must use grocery store foods, favor endive and escarole. Use dandelion greens, arugula, cilantro, kale, collard, mustard and turnip greens, and many other for occasional variety. Amend these grocery store greens by adding in something with high fiber like soaked ZooMed Grassland pellets, or soaked horse hay grass cubes. Just use a small amount of these new foods and take a few weeks to gradually introduce them to the tortoise. It is ver unlikely that the tortoise will just walk up and eat these new things on day one.

Lastly, this is posted under the Russian tortoise forum, but your tortoise is either a Hermanni or a greek. No matter, as care is essentially the same, but wanted to make sure you knew.
I know this is old post, but I'm curious about this MBD ? Is it curable?
 

Tom

The Dog Trainer
10 Year Member!
Platinum Tortoise Club
Joined
Jan 9, 2010
Messages
63,269
Location (City and/or State)
Southern California
I know this is old post, but I'm curious about this MBD ? Is it curable?
Metabolic bone disease is a term that can encompass many things. Typically, when used referring to reptiles, it refers to long term damage from calcium deficiency. There can be several reasons for the calcium deficiency, but if corrected, at least some amount of recovery is possible and probable. It really depends on what damage was done and several other variables. So, is it curable? Yes. Sort of. You can't make the animal perfect again as if it never happened, but you can re-calcify the bones again and hopefully give that animal a normal life going forward.
 

myk

Active Member
Joined
Oct 4, 2023
Messages
119
Location (City and/or State)
London ontario
Metabolic bone disease is a term that can encompass many things. Typically, when used referring to reptiles, it refers to long term damage from calcium deficiency. There can be several reasons for the calcium deficiency, but if corrected, at least some amount of recovery is possible and probable. It really depends on what damage was done and several other variables. So, is it curable? Yes. Sort of. You can't make the animal perfect again as if it never happened, but you can re-calcify the bones again and hopefully give that animal a normal life going forward.
Thanks Tom, I'll send pictures later for you to see,,I just obtained 2 leopard tortoises, a 4 yr male and a 10 yr female,,
 
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