Devastated...found two babies dead!

[pam]

Sooooooooooooooo sorry for your loss

 

[Beck]

Rats can fit through anything they can fit their skull through.

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[SANDRA_MEISSNEST]

I'm sorry for your loss... you have to try to find the predator and kill it, it knows where to get the food it will be back. so you have to kill it...
good luck and keep us posted let us know if you find out what it is.
you can buy all kinds of traps and keep it outside the enclosure so when they come they go for that first and then they get killed ;-)

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[Laura]

did this happen during the day?
do you have Crows or ravens or other such birds on the Island?

 

[sunshine_hugs]

Thanks everyone. I can't sleep at all tonight, even though I know the remaining torts are safe.

We have set a trap (only have one at home, will buy more when stores open on Wednesday), so we'll see if we get anything in the morning. We are definitely planning on killing the culprit, as we don't want anything to happen to our other tortoises.

Does anyone know if a mouse would do something like this? I remember seeing a mouse in our yard when I was moving a pile of stuff our gardener left laying around. Then I saw it a few days later, scurrying in the yard. I never thought much of it, as I didn't see a mouse as a threat to tortoises, but now I'm second guessing everything. I know whatever did this was fairly small (maybe small possum, rat, mouse?).

Also, I still can't figure out why Gruffalo died. He was perfectly untouched. Could it be from eating Riddle? (obviously it would have been after whatever ate her first). He was fine and totally normal just three hours before I found him dead...even did his usual daily routine. That part puzzles me beyond belief.

Okay, I'm going to try and get some sleep.

 

[sibi]

I perfectly understand how upsetting this is to you. If stressed to the limit, Gruffalo could have witnessed this attack on Riddle and it could have been enough to kill him. Many animals can die of extreme stress. If that is what killed him, that would be doubly horrible and tragic! Mice could attack and nibble, but it's more likely it was a rat because they are capable of the type of damage that was done. What you saw could have been a baby mouse. Where there's babies, there's a big mommy rat.

 

[ascott]

did this happen during the day?
do you have Crows or ravens or other such birds on the Island?

This is what I was wondering too when you describe the type of injury/damage...Ravens are premium predators as well as scavengers...here in the desert a Raven can easily do this exact described damage...and they do this often with CDTs...there have been nests found for Ravens with 20 to 30 shells below it with the exact damage you describe...

Again, I am so sad to hear this...I am so very very sorry to hear of this...

 

[sissyofone]

I am sooo sorry to hear.

 

[sunshine_hugs]

did this happen during the day?
do you have Crows or ravens or other such birds on the Island?

This is what I was wondering too when you describe the type of injury/damage...Ravens are premium predators as well as scavengers...here in the desert a Raven can easily do this exact described damage...and they do this often with CDTs...there have been nests found for Ravens with 20 to 30 shells below it with the exact damage you describe...

Again, I am so sad to hear this...I am so very very sorry to hear of this...

Yes, Gruffalo's death was during the day....he was fine in the morning, found him dead at 12:30pm. I found Riddle right after that, while searching their pen. Riddle could have died during the night, but I'm sorry to say that I don't know.

I saw all of the torts, except Riddle, in their pen in the morning. I didn't search for her at that time, because I assumed she was hiding / sleeping from the stress the day before. I didn't want to cause more stress, so I decided to leave her until soak time, which I do early afternoon.

When I found her, she was under one of the covered areas, right beside a hide. I'll add a picture of most of the enclosure, so you can maybe get a better idea. In the photo, on the very left, you'll see a long piece of wood...it's open on all side, just acts as a cover...I have two hides under it, and she was beside one of the hides.



Hmm...no crows or ravens on the island. Birds in my area that might be worth noting (mainly because I see them alot around my house), but I don't think would do something like this: Grackles, Smooth Bill Ani, Gray Kingbird.

None of these birds are known to be aggressive, as far as I know. And because of where Riddle was found, I can't see it being a bird.

Gruffalo still puzzles me.

I really appreciate everyone's help trying to figure out what happened. Nothing in the trap this morning.

 

[Itort]

Looking the picture of damage done the previous day I would say rat. A carnivore (mongoose) or possum would have left canine (fang) tooth marks while a rodent would leave incisor marks, a single bite mark instead of two. Rats are very difficult to control with small prey animals. I would suggest looking into getting a bait station ( holds posion bait out of reach of all but rats), elevating this above the torts.

 

[Baoh]

My intuition also suspects a rat or something very similar based on the information provided so far. A photo of the corpse may help, but I do not want you to feel pressed to share something you do not want to.

 

[yagyujubei]

I originally thought rat immediately, but I'm leaning toward a mongoose here. Did the bitten edges of the shell appear to be chewed (like a dog would), or gnawed like a rat would? Most predators chew with their molars or carnassials, bout rats use their incisors. A rat would leave distinctive marks almost pointed in cross section with incisor marks on both the outside and inside of the shell. Rats aren't normally known as a diurnal hunter, whereas a mongoose is. Make sure that you bait with meat.

---

Since one wasn't eaten, and without bite marks, you have to consider the possibility that both died from another cause, and an opportunistic predator found and fed on one.

 

[sunshine_hugs]

I originally thought rat immediately, but I'm leaning toward a mongoose here. Did the bitten edges of the shell appear to be chewed (like a dog would), or gnawed like a rat would? Most predators chew with their molars or carnassials, bout rats use their incisors. A rat would leave distinctive marks almost pointed in cross section with incisor marks on both the outside and inside of the shell. Rats aren't normally known as a diurnal hunter, whereas a mongoose is. Make sure that you bait with meat.

---

Since one wasn't eaten, and without bite marks, you have to consider the possibility that both died from another cause, and an opportunistic predator found and fed on one.

---

The last part of what you said is something that has been on my mind a lot.

Riddle (the one that was eaten), was a new member to our shelled family....she had just finished a quarantine, and I released her into the main pen with my others...I have 2 others that came to me at the same time as Riddle, but I'm just holding them for a friend. They are still in a separate pen, since they will be living with my friend next week.

I worry that Riddle may have had something wrong with her, that just wasn't visible...then, after something fed on her, Gruffalo (who eats anything) also fed on her, and maybe that's what killed him?

BUT, there were the chips in Riddle's shell, and her weird behaviour, the day before she died...so maybe there was a predator after her.

My hubby is going to buy more traps tomorrow, and I like the idea of baiting it with meat (should have been a given, but I didn't think of it). I will get our gardener to set traps for mongoose when he comes tomorrow...he does have possum traps in the yard, but we haven't caught one yet (even though I've seen a possum).

As for the bite marks (sorry I didn't take pictures...we left them is a small box, and buried them this morning), the edges of the bottom shell almost seemed smooth...they ate her into a crescent moon shape, and cleaned out most of her insides. There was one organ left when I found her (I didn't expect close enough to see what it was, but it was in the centre, and looked to be attached to the top shell). And again, the top shell looked to be untouched. She still had her head, and 3 limbs (sorry, this is a lot of info).

This is what the chips in her shell from the day before, looked like, for those who didn't see:



The other torts still seem to be fine, although the oldest two (a year old) have been fighting a little (not breaking the skin, but they are in too close of quarters right now...I'm looking for one more bin so I can separate them).

Thanks again for everyone's help. I'm so grateful, and will keep everyone posted on the outcome.

 

[ShellyTurtlesCats]

So sorry. Poor babies.

 

[sunshine_hugs]

My daughter (14), made this for Gruffalo and Riddle:

 

[ILoveTortoises2]

OH WOW.... Wow now I am putting 2 and 2 together. I remember you putting a thread about the baby tortoise had a bite or something on his/her shell. This is so sad. Poor little tortoise.
At least you got all your other babies out of there so this doesn't happen again. Wish I could give you a big hug so you feel alittle better. I know a hug can sometimes make me feel better
Keep your head up hun. Lets just worry about finding the rat that did this so it doesn't happen again. I think it is a great idea to put rat traps out. Hope you feel better soon hun.

 

[DixieParadise]

Wow, I know what it is like to lose a pet. I am thinking along the lines of predator as well. Keep them covered or inside until you can discover what it is or was. Now that it knows were it can find food..it will probably come back.

 

[SANDRA_MEISSNEST]

Yeah rat ot possum huge teeth they get them easily, we have one living in the neighbors yard my husband want to kill it now... because I don't want that my boxies going to die! let us know when you find it

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[sunshine_hugs]

OH WOW.... Wow now I am putting 2 and 2 together. I remember you putting a thread about the baby tortoise had a bite or something on his/her shell. This is so sad. Poor little tortoise.
At least you got all your other babies out of there so this doesn't happen again. Wish I could give you a big hug so you feel alittle better. I know a hug can sometimes make me feel better
Keep your head up hun. Lets just worry about finding the rat that did this so it doesn't happen again. I think it is a great idea to put rat traps out. Hope you feel better soon hun.

Aww....this is beyond sweet! Thank you for this!

I'm still at the point where I cry when I talk about them, but it's also still very, very fresh. My daughter and I had a nice talk and looked through a bunch of pictures today. It was nice.

---

And yes, we are keeping the other torts in a bin for now....the bin is outside during the day, inside at night. We will keep a similar set up until we find and kill the culprit (it sounds so mean, but as many people have said, now that it knows there's a food source here, it will come back).

Carnival ends tonight, so stores will be back open tomorrow. Hubby will be getting more traps, and I will be getting more bins, as the remaining torts are stressed, being confined together in a small space.

I will definitely post if / when we catch something.

 

[Jabuticaba]

So sorry for your loss. I feel awful for you and your torts. They were so beautiful.

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I just read the other posts and you mentioned possums, in the area. They can cause serious damage and they will kill small animals. When we lived in Brazil, our chicken coops had to be covered as well as lined with chicken wire, so the possums couldn't get in.