Diminishing thickness?

[Maggie3fan]

Thinking on it more to pinpoint what I mean by hostile language, I think that it's heavily related to commands. Short, terse sentences straight up saying "Stop doing x. You're killing your tortoise." vs "From experience seeing x happen when y is done, I'd strongly advise to do z right away." As said above, both opinions and facts are stated as absolute law a lot of the time, from a place assuming direct authority

Once that command is given, the wall is already up, no matter how much reasoning and logic based on science and experience is given afterward. Best I think to start with reasoning, and expand on evidence if someone still has doubts. It's more effort in the long run to try to lower walls rather than not raising them to begin with

That's in a perfect world...but no one said they needed to be offended first...you misunderstood...we are saying exactly the opposite, that we needed to be more cautious how we present our advice...I generally say I'm not an expert but in MY experience...yada blah...but I know I am always one to bottomline things and my irritation gets noticeable at times...I hope they deserve whatever because ya just can't fix stupid...they can't spell, or use most forms of punctuation or show respect, I try to not respond but not always..what the heck did they learn in school??? But I do say...stop doing x...because I want them to know whatever they need to change or the tort will die...I need them to know exactly that...I am not one to sugar coat things and if they don't like what I say or how I say it...you want your tort to live...then shut up and listen...now another drink is in the offing...

 

[Humbug & Maz]

@jeff kushner I am not sure if your original post was aimed solely at this forum or was about the general world wide web; however, I find I am not as thick skinned as I thought I was. There are some amazing people on here and I thank everyone for the help I have been given but I am now choosing to leave this forum.

I have been kind and courteous, thankful and (as much as I can be as a relative newbie) helpful and welcoming. But I feel uncomfortable now and I did not feel right about the post that was put up about @TaylorTortoise (who has been a loyal member for about 20 months) not having enough friends on here as she apparently hasn't been on here long enough to be a moderator (despite her obvious wish to be considered as one). I note she hasn't been on the site now for much longer than usual and that is very sad as I know this forum means a lot to her. Some people are suitable to be mods and some are not but I feel she was totally ostracized!

I have gained a lot over the past few weeks and will check in as a guest from time to time, but I don't feel "thick skinned" enough to carry on here. I was a mod and admin for years on a totally different forum and know what it takes to do a good job and how much time and effort is put in - but it needs kindness above everything. It costs nothing to be kind, however irritated you might feel.

Also want to thank the non mods/admin @Lyn W @Krista S and @Cathie G amongst others (sorry not to name you all) for your welcoming skills despite you turning down a moderator role – you are all marvellous!​

 

[wellington]

I would agree with you. I tend to read thru a lot of threads--old & new-- when looking for an answer. But that is totally in line with my education & work experience.

Unfortunately, the internet has trained some to become impatient--there just has to be an immediate right answer!! And "I'm right" because I saw it somewhere else on reddit, Facebook, etc.

Perhaps upon registering with the forum, maybe new members should automatically have to read a couple of docs before posting threads. And if it's a newbie "emergency," it automatically goes to a moderator(s).

I'm all for improved communication. I'm not for the unsolicited criticism of our experts & experienced owners & breeders by "newbies" who have no idea how much time everyone VOLUNTARILY gives of themselves & responds to the same questions ad nauseum.

I really like the idea of newbies being directed to having too read a few threads before being able to post. It's obvious most of them don't read any before posting or they would already know and hopefully would have changed all the bad in their husbandry.
Those newbies that argue, I do believe are those that came here just to be patted on the back. When a life of an animal is involved, I'm not patting anyone's back, im going to try and save the animal.
Anything else, I don't care and would give all the pats they want. Animal first ego last!
I also don't think they do understand how we have lives. I'm on here a lot. I try to check in often and check for unanswered threads, answer what I can quickly and then I'm off. I have a lot going on, as I'm sure the other mods do. I'm a get to the point type of person and always have been. Out of the newbies I have peed off, probably half have sent a PM, apologizing and/or thanking me for helping them improve their torts life. The other half probably just aren't big enough to admit they were wrong and never would in any situation.
I also believe the thinned skin has a lot to do with the situation of the world and probably more so everyone's a tuff guy behind a screen and keyboard. Very few without them would have the same guts.

 

[Chubbs the tegu]

I came in here and then seen all of the short novels written. Im more or a movie watcher than reader.. so if u guys wouldnt mind putting ur posts into video form? That would be great!

 

[RatQueen_Irene]

I don't think it's an issue of new people not reading necessarily, I think far more just can't find the info. I have no idea where Tom's updated caresheets are - they're not pinned in the sub forum for the species they correspond to. I have to search each time. That's where people go first, and there's old info pinned there. A welcome message with links would be a big help.

Honestly, it takes less energy to be kind than to be a complete asshole to someone. Here's an example: "There are severe threats here to your tortoise's health, I'd recommend fixing them as soon as possible. A quick list: uvb is needed, fruit should be removed, sand is a dangerous substrate. Here's a link to the caresheet (link)". And it's done, without hostility all around and people shutting down. You could save more tortoises this way, I guarantee. It seems far more an issue of people's stubbornness, anger, and ego than caring for them

 

[wellington]

I don't think it's an issue of new people not reading necessarily, I think far more just can't find the info. I have no idea where Tom's updated caresheets are - they're not pinned in the sub forum for the species they correspond to. I have to search each time. That's where people go first, and there's old info pinned there. A welcome message with links would be a big help.

Honestly, it takes less energy to be kind than to be a complete asshole to someone. Here's an example: "There are severe threats here to your tortoise's health, I'd recommend fixing them as soon as possible. A quick list: uvb is needed, fruit should be removed, sand is a dangerous substrate. Here's a link to the caresheet (link)". And it's done, without hostility all around and people shutting down. You could save more tortoises this way, I guarantee. It seems far more an issue of people's stubbornness, anger, and ego than caring for them

Personally, I feel that is the way it usually is started out, for several post, by different members. Then the newbie gets their butt hurt and starts the attack.
As for finding the threads. As a newer member it would be helpful to us that are used to finding them, what would help to make them easier? Maybe if they were easier more newbies would find them sooner. I can find them easily, just takes me longer to get them posted on a thread. I only have a phone I do this on so it's a lot of back tracking.

 

[Tom]

Honestly, it takes less energy to be kind than to be a complete asshole to someone.

I disagree on this one point. For me it is just the opposite. My Dad had a saying: "Its easy to be an A-hole to someone. Takes no effort at all. It takes effort to be nice." If you knew the man it would make much more sense to you, but either way, it does illustrate that different people see things differently.

Here's an example: "There are severe threats here to your tortoise's health, I'd recommend fixing them as soon as possible. A quick list: uvb is needed, fruit should be removed, sand is a dangerous substrate. Here's a link to the caresheet (link)". And it's done, ...

This is exactly how I perceive myself doing things. Almost word-for-word and in the same order. There was a recent exception when the new member started out with an offensive tone and basically told us that we were all a-holes but don't be an a-hole to me. I politely addressed that horrible opening statement, and then proceeded to do what you outlined here. Please speak freely and tell me if my perception of how I present info is wrong from what you've seen.

 

[Maggie3fan]

@jeff kushner I am not sure if your original post was aimed solely at this forum or was about the general world wide web; however, I find I am not as thick skinned as I thought I was. There are some amazing people on here and I thank everyone for the help I have been given but I am now choosing to leave this forum.

I have been kind and courteous, thankful and (as much as I can be as a relative newbie) helpful and welcoming. But I feel uncomfortable now and I did not feel right about the post that was put up about @TaylorTortoise (who has been a loyal member for about 20 months) not having enough friends on here as she apparently hasn't been on here long enough to be a moderator (despite her obvious wish to be considered as one). I note she hasn't been on the site now for much longer than usual and that is very sad as I know this forum means a lot to her. Some people are suitable to be mods and some are not but I feel she was totally ostracized!

I have gained a lot over the past few weeks and will check in as a guest from time to time, but I don't feel "thick skinned" enough to carry on here. I was a mod and admin for years on a totally different forum and know what it takes to do a good job and how much time and effort is put in - but it needs kindness above everything. It costs nothing to be kind, however irritated you might feel.

Also want to thank the non mods/admin @Lyn W @Krista S and @Cathie G amongst others (sorry not to name you all) for your welcoming skills despite you turning down a moderator role – you are all marvellous!​

@Humbug & Maz ...I cannot f'ing believe that you are leaving because YOU misunderstood what I wrote. @TaylorTortoise said, and I quote not exactly...something about her not having very many friends... so I said...it's because you haven't been here long enuf...what the heck is wrong with that???????????? She asked and I told... I am seriously tired of having to defend myself because somebody who has trouble deciphering the written word misunderstands me. ...and my personal opinion is that she is too young, here and in age, and too nice, she'd get walked all over.... My personal opinion accounts as squat. I have absolutely no say in anything that goes on here. So you wanna leave??? BYE, oh and thanks ever so...

 

[minimoo]

I disagree on this one point. For me it is just the opposite. My Dad had a saying: "Its easy to be an A-hole to someone. Takes no effort at all. It takes effort to be nice." If you knew the man it would make much more sense to you, but either way, it does illustrate that different people see things differently.

There's a difference between being an a$$hole and being direct. As a brand-spankin'-newbie who was trying to gorge on all the info on everything, my interpretation of Tom's posts and a few others are that they are simply 'direct'...and with the number of times they respond with the same core info, I can see where elaboration might get lost over the years. I also tend to be direct/curt, and it takes much more time/effort for me to compose thoughts in a "kind" way.

I do think something along the lines of Yvonne's encouraging statement, "It looks like you've put a lot/some effort into giving your tortoise the best care, yet it seems that some of the information you have received is outdated." I feel that acknowledging their efforts should be enough of a validation to keep that wall down/door open for absorbing corrections.

 

[TaylorTortoise]

@Humbug & Maz ...I cannot f'ing believe that you are leaving because YOU misunderstood what I wrote. @TaylorTortoise said, and I quote not exactly...something about her not having very many friends... so I said...it's because you haven't been here long enuf...what the heck is wrong with that???????????? She asked and I told... I am seriously tired of having to defend myself because somebody who has trouble deciphering the written word misunderstands me. ...and my personal opinion is that she is too young, here and in age, and too nice, she'd get walked all over.... My personal opinion accounts as squat. I have absolutely no say in anything that goes on here. So you wanna leave??? BYE, oh and thanks ever so...

@Humbug & Maz sometimes we have to just look shocked.. and bite our tounges at how overly powering or serious some people may be on here…. All I gotta say is I might be young, but I will out live anyone on this site

Which will make me more knowledgeable starting at such a young age!!! So let them say what they want!!! It’s constructive feedback in my opinion, nothing ever bothers me. I am solely here for one thing, to learn, better myself as a tortoise’ parent and help others thrive on here.

 

[Chubbs the tegu]

This whole thing is getting silly with you 3. Nothing Mags says is gonna make a difference in weather u become moderator or not...She was just giving her opinion on it.
people are going to give there names who they want as moderators and that will be the deciding factor.
Taylortortoise, you said urself ur here to help people.. there is no need to be a moderator for that ? so what is it? The power trip?

 

[Jan A]

@Humbug & Maz sometimes we have to just look shocked.. and bite our tounges at how overly powering or serious some people may be on here…. All I gotta say is I might be young, but I will out live anyone on this site

Which will make me more knowledgeable starting at such a young age!!! So let them say what they want!!! It’s constructive feedback in my opinion, nothing ever bothers me. I am solely here for one thing, to learn, better myself as a tortoise’ parent and help others thrive on here.

You're right. You will outlive many of us. Gee, thanks. There's a quality you think you need to be a good moderator?

Maggie's comment applies to me as well. I've had a tort for 3 months. I've never had any other reptile. Other people nominated as moderator have yrs of tortoise experience from hatchling to adults. Some have bred and/or hatched eggs. Many have raised turtles or other reptiles.

That, to me, is the point Maggie was getting at. It isn't just the amount of time you've been on TF or how much you've "read", it's also how long you've owned a tort or turtle.

We can't buy experience. That is what makes TF unique. You can come here & get answers & moderators oversee that a newbie or member get the best answers we have. And there is debate because so much of the "science" is old or very subjective. That is healthy. Moderators have to intervene when it turns into personal attacks or it gets off track.

Moderators also have to intervene when answers/advice are flat out wrong. You & I aren't there yet.

In addition to emergencies automatically referred to moderators, maybe we need moderators in training for people like you & I who have much less tort/turtle/reptile experience who want to participate as moderators.

I am a firm believer in "it's not the years, it's the mileage." So yes, younger people can & should be moderators if they have the requisite tort and/or turtle experience (& can read & write).