Dissection.

Markw84

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@Markw84 are these areas of differential bone and scute growth explanations from your own observation, or from published works that come to mind as you review @Anyfoot 's post? Maybe both? Could you please offer the sources from your readings?

I am able to make a slow motion video in my minds eye of the bone filling-in/overtaking the shell's marrow from your explanation. It bears out precisely for a weird type of pyramiding seen by many in developing Pyxis planicauda. In them, as they grow, the side of the coastal scutes nearest the middle of the carapace can pyramid while the rest of the shell does not, giving them a somewhat two keeled look. Thanks much for the visually rich narrative. Exactly the sentences that I made bold. It's an explanation that fits the observation with P. planicauda.

Will,

The dearth of research about tortoises is daunting! There are no published papers I know of that explain this. Look at pyramiding. There is no place in the world where anyone has ever published anything on the physiology of pyramiding. It is often simply referred to as a mystery no one knows. My theory is the only one I have ever seen or heard of.

So it is the study of many, even marginally related subjects coupled with my own observations that leads me here. General physiology, anatomy and biology. Veterinary medicine. Orthopedics and orthodontics. Embryonic development - and there are some papers on tortoises/turtles there. Anything I can find on keratin growth. Meteorology, passive heating, electromagnetic radiation, and quantum mechanics. Construction. Etc, etc. etc. All of these and more have been areas of quite intensive study that has help piece things together on the pyramiding side. Mix that with decades of intensely watching tortoises grow and a mindset that HAS TO KNOW not just how things work but why!

General physiology in how bones are formed and grow is a lot of what I believe you are asking. Couple that with chelonian anatomy, and how keratin grows. Then lots of observation and theories seeing which ones prove false and don't fit all situations I run into, and which one stands.
 

Anyfoot

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I’ve done it. It doesn’t work. They need to be lost in the ground. These 23 I’m raising now, up until about 4 week ago I had to dig down into the substrate to find them. I’m not exaggerating, it could take me a good 20minutes to find them all in a 4x8 vivarium. They would dig into the coir 2 or 3” below the moss. Impossible to see. Feel around by digging fingers in.
@TechnoCheese I did exaggerate. It’s 3x6ft viv.
:D:D:D
 

Anyfoot

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Cartilage is not being deformed. It does not dissolve and get removed by metabolic processes like bone would here. So although the keratin may be drying on top and grow more downward, that downward pressure is not removing cartilage. It remains and the keratin is pushed level. With bone, the pressure on the epithelial layer, as the new keratin fills in next to the epithelial fold, actually causes osteoclast genesis. That means a type of stem cell that epithelial tissue can contain, actually turns into cells that absorb existing bone - osteoclasts. Bone is dissolved. This creates a permanent dip in the bone that cannot "spring back". Bone growth is being redirected. This cannot happen with cartilage. It can only happen when cartilage has ossified into bone.

Was just reading through this again after some thoughts I had.

If cartilage doesn’t regenerate with osteoclasts and osteoblasts like bone then there can only be 2 options regarding the keratin digging down into the cartilage.

1, Keep top layer of keratin moist and supple to allow the cartilage to spring back as growth commences.

2, cartilage must ossify to bone first so the keratin can’t dig down.


We never see a tortoise that is smooth start to pyramid all of a sudden. Is this because the bone is fully ossified and new keratin cannot over power the bone. This suggests that the pyramiding happens only at the cartilage stage. The new dry keratin forces cartilage to grow down, then the cartilage ossifies to bone at the wrong angle. From then on the bone grows at what ever angle it ossified at. Maybe when we are trying hard to pull a pyramided tort back to new smooth growth we are then redirecting bone through osteoclast and osteoblast. (Just like orthodontics with teeth)

There is definitely a point where they no longer need that high carapace hydration and still carry on growing smooth. Is it when it’s ossified to bone? I know for a fact that my redfoots will grow at what ever angle their at regardless of carapace hydration from around 2 yrs old
 

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I am intrigued by the use of coconut oil. since we are altering their behavior plus - what fun is a tortoise you can never see! - perhaps we need to help with altered ways of retaining moisture. There have been a few example on the forum of one keeper I know who admitted to being sloppy about humidity, had open top, and bathed irregularly but had a quite nice, smooth tortoise - I recall leopard? She said she was good at keeping coconut oil on after every bath that was normally about 2x week. I also always am impressed with @Pearly 's redfoots and I know she says she uses oil regularly.

It seems to be something that would have value. Have you tried a strict regimen of keeping cold pressed coconut oil on the carapace? Since the carapace is totally keratin, oil would have great value in keeping it more supple. That is on my list of experiments for this next year.
I got a baby Redfoot that hatched Christmas Eve. I've have it setup in a closed chamber with the humidity about 85% and I planned on doing a coconut oil regimen once or twice a week. This is my first attempt at growing a smooth tortoise from the hatchling stage though so I don't really have any experience to compare the results to. Maybe I'll make a thread. I think the thought that in the wild baby tortoises stay dug in and hidden constantly in moist areas vs becoming tame and changing their behavior in captivity would make a lot of sense.
 

Markw84

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Was just reading through this again after some thoughts I had.

If cartilage doesn’t regenerate with osteoclasts and osteoblasts like bone then there can only be 2 options regarding the keratin digging down into the cartilage.

1, Keep top layer of keratin moist and supple to allow the cartilage to spring back as growth commences.

2, cartilage must ossify to bone first so the keratin can’t dig down.


We never see a tortoise that is smooth start to pyramid all of a sudden. Is this because the bone is fully ossified and new keratin cannot over power the bone. This suggests that the pyramiding happens only at the cartilage stage. The new dry keratin forces cartilage to grow down, then the cartilage ossifies to bone at the wrong angle. From then on the bone grows at what ever angle it ossified at. Maybe when we are trying hard to pull a pyramided tort back to new smooth growth we are then redirecting bone through osteoclast and osteoblast. (Just like orthodontics with teeth)

There is definitely a point where they no longer need that high carapace hydration and still carry on growing smooth. Is it when it’s ossified to bone? I know for a fact that my redfoots will grow at what ever angle their at regardless of carapace hydration from around 2 yrs old

Bone pyramids. Cartilage does not. The slight pressure from scute seams causes Bone to deform. Osteoclasts and osteoblasts are types of bone cells. The first breaks down and dissolves bone by freeing the minerals - calcium, and phosphorus back into the bloodstream. The bone cells are actually destroyed and are gone. Osteoblasts are cells that build new bone. These cells build new bone and the cells use calcium and phosphorus to mineralize and the cells change into osteocytes = bone cells. Bone is being added. It is this reshaping of bone that is actually causing it to grow in a new direction. Cartilage will not do this, and the bulk of the tortoise shell is already well mineralized on the whole top half of the carapace. It is only the lower portion of the costals that have the fontanelles that are still mineralizing. This area will not pyramid as cartilage is not reshaped.

I have seen examples of tortoises that start to pyramid later in life. Look at some of the imported giant tortoises and you see it more commonly. The initially grew smooth, but when brought into captivity the new growth starts to pyramid. Created plateaus out of each scute. It is no as common as you need to have a tortoise who initially is raised in optimal conditions that is then put in conditions that are too desiccating.

You can smooth out the direction of growth on older tortoises as well, but it becomes increasingly harder. With enough growth, the plane of the vertebral bones themselves have been altered and they are tipped. New bone growth will be along these lines as there is not even a scute border touching every other bone along the spine. The costals can have amazing changes in pyramiding reduction, though.

Here's a picture I just went out and took of one of my female G platynota The Behler Center raises them quite dry. They are sold on the old school methods believing pyramiding is mainly reduced by slower growth and proper diet. All their G platynota pyramid markedly. I got this gal from them when she was just over 5 years old. Quite pyramided and 5.31" and 414g. Almost three years later, she is now almost 8 ytears old (in 3 weeks) You can see the tremendous almost totally flat growth now in her costals. The vertebrals have moderated but still not smooth. She is now 11.78" and 4600g. Over 11 times her weight in growth in 3 years and about as smooth as I think you can reverse pyramiding that was 5 years in the making.

IMG_0600.jpg


IMG_0601.jpg
 

Anyfoot

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Mark.

On this tortoise I dissected, all the carapace and plastron is still floppy, it’s got no rigidity as bone would. Is it still cartilage or bone, Or is it in the process of ossifying, so a mix of both.

When they first hatch out is the carapace and plastron still cartilage? This would explain why they all grow smooth up to around 5 months old, Is it around 5 months old when the cartilage becomes a higher percentage of bone mass? Hence a chance of pyramiding kicking in.
Also if, let’s say it’s only cartilage up to 4 months old then what’s the point of super hydrating them at that age because cartilage can’t pyramid.

Obviously cartilage doesn’t turn to bone over night. But I have noticed pyramiding comes in around the same time they start to harden off.
 
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Markw84

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Mark.

On this tortoise I dissected, all the carapace and plastron is still floppy, it’s got no rigidity as bone would. Is it still cartilage or bone, Or is it in the process of ossifying, so a mix of both.

When they first hatch out is the carapace and plastron still cartilage? This would explain why they all grow smooth up to around 5 months old, Is it around 5 months old when the cartilage becomes a higher percentage of bone mass? Hence a chance of pyramiding kicking in.
Also if, let’s say it’s only cartilage up to 4 months old then what’s the point of super hydrating them at that age because cartilage can’t pyramid.

Obviously cartilage doesn’t turn to bone over night. But I have noticed pyramiding comes in around the same time they start to harden off.
Craig

We see plenty of baby tortoise that start pyramiding from their very first scute seam expansion. By 5 months tortoise raised dry are extremely pyramided if they are actively growing.

Most of the carapace is already ossifying when the tortoise hatches. It is a gradual process of fully mineralizing and thickening that does take years though. Young bones are quite supple. Even in humans, bone ossification of the cartilage model begins in the second trimester of fetal development and continues through the mid teens until the skeleton is fully ossified.

So what you are seeing is mostly very young bone. The cartilage that forms the model the skeleton takes, is in the process of ossifying. The young bone is easily redirected as it is more actively growing throughout. This would be especially true along the spine and the tops of the ribs. The lower half of the ribs are growing outward and spreading to join. The bottoms are still pure cartilage as well as the spaces between the lower half.

So it would be bone actively in the ossifying and the growing stages that would seem the most susceptible to pyramiding pressures. It would be the redirected osteoblasts and pressure induced osteoclasts that form in bone to make the changes.
 

Toddrickfl1

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Might be a dumb question but are there different types of humidity? Like would the humidity affect the Tortoise differently out in the open air (like in a barren closed chamber) vs humidity in a burrow or leaf litter? I'm not the most sciencey person but this pyramiding thing fascinates me.
 

Markw84

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Might be a dumb question but are there different types of humidity? Like would the humidity affect the Tortoise differently out in the open air (like in a barren closed chamber) vs humidity in a burrow or leaf litter? I'm not the most sciencey person but this pyramiding thing fascinates me.
Great question and I think a lot of the root of many people's problems.

Air circulation around the carapace certainly aids in desiccation. The whole Idea of using a fan to cool you down is that it is the evaporation from your skin that cools you. As you get into higher and higher humidity, this effect become less and less as there is no evaporation as you get to 100%. Up to that - there is some relative to the humidity level. Stopping air circulation/movement, dramatically reduces this. When we put lights in our enclosures - even fluorescents - there is heat around the bulb. A T5 runs at about 100°. A low watt incadescent is way hotter than that. So the air closer to the light is warmed and there is a drafting effect always created. The humidity is quite different near the light vs away from the light in our enclosures if we have a heat gradient. For example, in an enclosure at 85° and 90% RH, if it is 100° under the basking light, the relative humidity there is actually 57%. And you have open air and some convection current of air there.

Under leaf litter, or a thick plant cover, there is no air exchange. It is the coolest part of the enclosure and humidity is highest around that location. With moist substrate, humdity there will stay 100% - at dew point. Virtually no desiccation can occur.
 

Toddrickfl1

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I'm going to share my story. When I got my Tort I was expecting a hatchling and had a small closed chamber setup. However the breeder didn't make it to the show and I ended up coming home with a juvenile Redfoot instead. Murphy weighed about 350g when I got him close to 4 inches. This is the day I got him.20180106_144143.jpg 20180106_101838 (1).jpg The closed chamber I had setup was really too small for him. I kept him in it for only about 3 weeks. @Anyfoot me and you had a conversation months ago at this time and you had mentioned it would be hard to get Murphy to start pyramiding at this point because he was already past the hatchling stage. So I went with that (even though when I try to mention that in groups or even here I get chastised lol) and I built an open table for him. I told myself if he starts Pyramiding I would convert back over to the closed chamber. He has ended up living in this container since February of 2018 except on my days off in the summer he went in a pen outside during the days and back to the enclosure nights. We don't always have high humidity here in GA. In the past year he has grown to be a little over 6" a 1000g and perfectly smooth! I must mention that his enclosure is kept in a room with 3 Large open top fish tanks so there is 50% humidity consistently in the room. Also, he's not a really big eater and I'm not entirely sure he's CB either. I was told he was an import, a "Farmed tortoise". I also do weekly soaks and coconut oil application. All these things could possibly be factors. I may be a bad Tort father because honestly, I haven't really made to much effort worrying about humidity. It's baffling to me though, because I've seen posts with similar sized torts being kept in closed chambers, yet still mildly pyramiding? This has led me to believe that there has to be other factors at play with Pyramiding besides just lack of humidity. I'm actually tempted to raise my new hatchling in the exact same fashion I just don't want to end up with a disfigured tortoise. Here are some recent pics of MurphyIMG_20181106_163746964.jpg IMG_20190115_184157042.jpg IMG_20190115_184220785.jpg
 

Anyfoot

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I'm going to share my story. When I got my Tort I was expecting a hatchling and had a small closed chamber setup. However the breeder didn't make it to the show and I ended up coming home with a juvenile Redfoot instead. Murphy weighed about 350g when I got him close to 4 inches. This is the day I got him.View attachment 262663 View attachment 262664 The closed chamber I had setup was really too small for him. I kept him in it for only about 3 weeks. @Anyfoot me and you had a conversation months ago at this time and you had mentioned it would be hard to get Murphy to start pyramiding at this point because he was already past the hatchling stage. So I went with that (even though when I try to mention that in groups or even here I get chastised lol) and I built an open table for him. I told myself if he starts Pyramiding I would convert back over to the closed chamber. He has ended up living in this container since February of 2018 except on my days off in the summer he went in a pen outside during the days and back to the enclosure nights. We don't always have high humidity here in GA. In the past year he has grown to be a little over 6" a 1000g and perfectly smooth! I must mention that his enclosure is kept in a room with 3 Large open top fish tanks so there is 50% humidity consistently in the room. Also, he's not a really big eater and I'm not entirely sure he's CB either. I was told he was an import, a "Farmed tortoise". I also do weekly soaks and coconut oil application. All these things could possibly be factors. I may be a bad Tort father because honestly, I haven't really made to much effort worrying about humidity. It's baffling to me though, because I've seen posts with similar sized torts being kept in closed chambers, yet still mildly pyramiding? This has led me to believe that there has to be other factors at play with Pyramiding besides just lack of humidity. I'm actually tempted to raise my new hatchling in the exact same fashion I just don't want to end up with a disfigured tortoise. Here are some recent pics of MurphyView attachment 262665 View attachment 262666 View attachment 262667

I’m not taking anything away from you, your care or your beautiful tortoise. If you haven’t raised it from the egg you do not have a direct comparison to learn from imo. I believe the first few weeks, months sets out the path of growth. Anyone can get a 4” import and it will grow on smooth unless it’s been neglected to the extent it’s on deaths door. They can just tolerate most climates at that age.
I think you should some how get a very very young hatchling or ask around to buy some eggs. I gave a friend 5 eggs that were about 4 months old so she could start from scratch. 3 hatched a few wks back. Maybe that’s an option for you.
 

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I’m not taking anything away from you, your care or your beautiful tortoise. If you haven’t raised it from the egg you do not have a direct comparison to learn from imo. I believe the first few weeks, months sets out the path of growth. Anyone can get a 4” import and it will grow on smooth unless it’s been neglected to the extent it’s on deaths door. They can just tolerate most climates at that age.
I think you should some how get a very very young hatchling or ask around to buy some eggs. I gave a friend 5 eggs that were about 4 months old so she could start from scratch. 3 hatched a few wks back. Maybe that’s an option for you.
That's what I figured from our last conversation. Not to many people have this thought though. Most people swear a Tortoise will pyramid at any stage if not kept humid. @Anyfoot I actually bought an egg from Tortstork and hatched it myself. It hatched Christmas Eve. IMG_20181224_051640103.jpg IMG_20181224_165653515.jpgSo this is my first REAL go around at raising a smooth tortoise from the egg. Right now I've got it in a closed chamber at about 86 degrees and 90% humidity. I am tempted to discard the close chamber and raise this one in the same fashion as Murphy just to see what happens. I just don't want to end up with a disfigured tortoise. I did try something different though I placed my heat source outside the enclosure after hearing about someone else who has had success at growing smooth Tortoises this way. My thinking was less desiccation on the carapace from the CHE maybe? IMG_20190103_100305070.jpg
 

Markw84

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Craig. I have seen several examples of tortoises that begin to pyramid later in life when started smooth. I like to keep pictures as I run into them as examples. It is harder to see the results of this as it is pretty rare for someone to get a smooth tortoise and not also get tips on how it was kept up to that point. Here's a few examples though..

f13b2552473755e5a5205891acc441c7.jpg Redfoot pyramid later.jpg south-american-yellow-footed-tortoise-aka-brazilian-giant-tortoise-f7y0ae.jpg Redfoot pyramid and MBD later in life.jpg

The last one obviouly had a dramatic change. MBD even set in dramatically late in life. The rear pelvic girdle is not sunken as much, yet all new growth was mostly in the front portion and the rear portion still started sinking.

@Toddrickfl1 My theory is that pyramiding is caused by desiccation of new keratin growth as the seams expand. Humidity is the "more natural" way to help minimize that. In the wild they stay covered to find that and keep from desiccating. In captivity we often find altered behaviors where they no longer feel a need to hide. Coconut oil certainly makes sense to me as a way to also help control that, especially when we have altered behaviors of captivity.
 

Anyfoot

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Craig. I have seen several examples of tortoises that begin to pyramid later in life when started smooth. I like to keep pictures as I run into them as examples. It is harder to see the results of this as it is pretty rare for someone to get a smooth tortoise and not also get tips on how it was kept up to that point. Here's a few examples though..

View attachment 262698 View attachment 262699 View attachment 262700 View attachment 262701

The last one obviouly had a dramatic change. MBD even set in dramatically late in life. The rear pelvic girdle is not sunken as much, yet all new growth was mostly in the front portion and the rear portion still started sinking.

@Toddrickfl1 My theory is that pyramiding is caused by desiccation of new keratin growth as the seams expand. Humidity is the "more natural" way to help minimize that. In the wild they stay covered to find that and keep from desiccating. In captivity we often find altered behaviors where they no longer feel a need to hide. Coconut oil certainly makes sense to me as a way to also help control that, especially when we have altered behaviors of captivity.
#2 is typical of a captive tort pyramiding aroundcthe 5 month mark. They look that this at about 18months old.

#3 was never smooth and growth pattern has changed through different care. In a few years the newer growth will be more obvious, but still the same angle as the first growth.

#4 has had some serious neglect in its life.

#1 has me puzzled. That at some point was a smooth wild tortoise. From what we can see only the front vertebral and 2 front coastals are pyramided. Maybe a deformity of some sort.

If never seen a perfectly smooth grown wild redfoot tortoise pyramid later in life. Usually the new growth carries on at the same angle but at a lower level. Which I always thought was because the new keratin was kept too dry and wasn’t allowed to swell. But from the dissection it proves the keratin doesn’t swell. It’s a thin constant layer that follows the contour of the bone. Let me find a photo.
 

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You can see on this one where it’s been taken into captivity. The new growth is perfect but on a lower level. It follows the same angle as the old growth.
A4EF43B0-E1E0-411F-BE82-C405D333AD10.jpeg
 

Anyfoot

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Mark.

Just found this one searching the net.
Trying to read the carapace.

I would say this was a 4” import that took that lower level of growth in immediate captive care, Then it endured a pyramiding stage and the newest growth is now level again. So this tortoise would prove they can pyramid at any stage of life.
However, was this animal endured extreme dry conditions with growth or is there some past diet issue going on. It looks slightly deformed due to captive care.

76D3B242-97A4-4ECF-BABB-90EF87AD19D5.jpeg
 

Anyfoot

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@Markw84

If we had a smooth tortoise, then let it get do dehydrated it had sunken scutes. What as actually happened to make the scutes sunken?
Is it just the bone that has dried out too much and withered?
 
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