dry tortoise shell?

[Yingg]

If and that’s a big if, it is liver failure, I don’t think there’s any telling how severe it is without further tests like bloods etc, I definitely think your best bet for right now is to continue with the plans to upgrade the enclosure and getting her diet better, improving the husbandry could very well improve her physical state, time shall tell❤️

Try not to worry on the vet side of things for the time being, unless anything of dire concern comes up symptom wise, for right now, as long as she’s active with a good appetite, just continue to closely monitor her progress and continue with the other treatment suggestions from other members if you feel it’s helping her shell💕

You poor thing I can feel your guilt through your responses😔💔please believe when I tell you, you’re being a wonderful owner, have mistakes been made? Yes, but are you making steps to correct them now you’ve noticed? Also yes, and that is what makes you a caring owner. There’s so many people out there who notice something isn’t right with their animal, yet don’t care to do anything about it or get to the bottom of the cause. That isn’t you, you’re clearly doing the best you can for the circumstances you’re in!

Continue your focus on improving her lifestyle and set up, I think that could very well go a long way in improving her physical state❤️if over time things still aren’t quite right with her, members can help advise on where to go from there, stay strong, you’ve got this!❤️

oh, how likely is she to be just fat if she lived in a small enclosure (maybe like 3ft x 1.5ft) for many years and basically only ate romaine lettuce? and... the occasional apple, broccoli, and banana? yes, i know that diet and care is horrible. and how likely is liver failure? if it's just fat it'll be a lot less complicated....

 

[Alex and the Redfoot]

i thought on it for a while, but what you, alex, and yvonne are saying is that even if she did have liver failure, it's not acute because she's had it a while? and my best bet is to upgrade her enclosure and feed her better (which im working on doing)? sorry i'm really lost 😞

my other choice is to switch vets, though my mom won't let me do it because she thinks it's ridiculous to spend that much money on a tortoise. similarly, she thinks if my tortoise is sick then "it's her fate to die". it's really difficult to convince her otherwise. if i did manage to convince her, it would be probably 1000 USD or more for the treatment, which isn't money i can easily get because of schooling and because i have to feed myself. will my baby be alright for another year until i graduate? once i graduate and can drive myself then i'll have the freedom to spend all my money on her treatment.

she's had this "fatty" skin (puffy) for a while (years) so that's why i wasn't so concerned at first until vet #1 said it could be edema, not fat. please tell me more of your thoughts, i'm really having mixed feelings right now 😭

Sorry, if a "bullet list" style is a bit dry:

1. Is it your fault? No. There are factors like genetics, infections and early development which play role too. And mistakes in care because you trusted pet shop guys as experts - is not your fault either.

2. Should you change the vet? If cannot pay for diagnostics - perhaps, not. You may try to contact a good exotics vet online to get recommendations. This won't be definite and complete medical advice but can give you directions on next steps, price estimates and such. You may try to contact clinics by email - hopefully one-two of them will answer.

3. Are there effective medications for chronic organ diseases? Perhaps, not. So even when you get a diagnosis, the most effective will be husbandry correction.

4. Will any medication or procedures work with incorrect husbandry? No, not in a long-term.

5. Is it a death sentence? Likely not, some chronical diseases (like diabetes in humans) while affect quality of life still allow many years of life.

 

[Yingg]

Sorry, if a "bullet list" style is a bit dry:

1. Is it your fault? No. There are factors like genetics, infections and early development which play role too. And mistakes in care because you trusted pet shop guys as experts - is not your fault either.

2. Should you change the vet? If cannot pay for diagnostics - perhaps, not. You may try to contact a good exotics vet online to get recommendations. This won't be definite and complete medical advice but can give you directions on next steps, price estimates and such. You may try to contact clinics by email - hopefully one-two of them will answer.

3. Are there effective medications for chronic organ diseases? Perhaps, not. So even when you get a diagnosis, the most effective will be husbandry correction.

4. Will any medication or procedures work with incorrect husbandry? No, not in a long-term.

5. Is it a death sentence? Likely not, some chronical diseases (like diabetes in humans) while affect quality of life still allow many years of life.

don't worry about it being dry. this is great information? thank you. i will correct my husbandry, of course. hopefully i will see results.

 

[Alex and the Redfoot]

oh, how likely is she to be just fat if she lived in a small enclosure (maybe like 3ft x 1.5ft) for many years and basically only ate romaine lettuce? and... the occasional apple, broccoli, and banana? yes, i know that diet and care is horrible. and how likely is liver failure? if it's just fat it'll be a lot less complicated....

Surprisingly, recommendations for tortoises with obesity and non-infectious liver disorders are very close:
1. Good varied diet (low protein, high fiber)
2. Hydration
3. Exercise

Let's focus on what you do right now:
1. What's her diet now? What do you feed, what schedule, any supplements or amendments.
2. You soak her daily. How long? Is there water dish when she's outside?
3. She's outside and has access to almost full yard. How often and how long she stays there? Are there areas treated with pesticides or fertilized?

 

[Yingg]

Surprisingly, recommendations for tortoises with obesity and non-infectious liver disorders are very close:
1. Good varied diet (low protein, high fiber)
2. Hydration
3. Exercise

Let's focus on what you do right now:
1. What's her diet now? What do you feed, what schedule, any supplements or amendments.
2. You soak her daily. How long? Is there water dish when she's outside?
3. She's outside and has access to almost full yard. How often and how long she stays there? Are there areas treated with pesticides or fertilized?

she's very picky so i'm working on introducing new foods. she will eat mustard greens if she is very hungry. she spits out kale and every type of tortoise chow i've bought. she'll starve herself if she smells mazuri, haha. i'm leaning away from lettuce right now, and there is less and less of it in her "salads". i've been feeding wheatgrass, mint, succulents, celery tops (the leafy part) and hibiscus leaves i plucked from outside. i feed her every day, a pinch of calcium powder every other day (i tried the cuttle bone but she ignored it)

i soak her every other day actually, or more recently i've been doing that. it's about 30 min each soak with a paper towel across her shell so she stays "wet". should i begin to provide a water dish for her outside? i didn't have one yet, since i thought bathing was enough.

i've been weaning her off staying indoors all the time (basically 24:7) and i think i've been doing okay with letting her out for maybe... 5-6 hours every other day? usually from 4-6 or if i can watch her all the time, i'll just do 1-6:30. i have classes so the second i get home i've been trying to let her out for a soak/walk. (except for the past few days since i've been very busy) there are no pesticides or anything, there is plant food but that's mostly in areas she can't reach (pots). im trying to walk her much more, i'd actually like to leave her out pretty much all day if she weren't an escape artist. i left her out and left to submit my homework once, and couldn't find her for 4 days. she was nearly 150 yards away under a rosemary bush! she seemed fine after that ordeal though, despite the cold nights ^^

she's very energetic and lively, she walks fast and is always digging. if anything, the only thing that is concerning behavior wise is how she has a strange appetite. sometimes she won't eat a single bite for a few days. she refuses to eat even after i soak her. sometimes she will eat a lot.

 

[Alex and the Redfoot]

Expect her to be picky after year of romaine. I suspect they have some kind of "food imprinting" period and after that it's a pain to convince them eat anything else.

Calcium powder is okay to use just once a week. So it doesn't mess with intake of other microelements. Cuttlebone should be just available to satisfy "calcium cravings", they can ignore it for months.

What kind of Mazuri do you use? If it's Classic 5M21 - I would advise against it (high protein, low fiber - not what she needs now). Mazuri LS should be okay. Start with 1 pellet mushed with romaine lettuce (think of it like of salt or pepper).

You can soak her without towel. Unless there is a lot of new growth, watering the shell does nothing (old keratin does not absorb water). 30 minutes every other day is a good routine, no need to change it.

She always should have access to clean fresh water and be able to self-soak if she needs to. So she needs a large enough water dish when outside.

Keeping her outside 24/7 in adequate weather is your goal. A secure pen out of wooden pallets (you can get them for free often) would be great or a chicken coop out of wielded wire. Maybe your mother will agree to invest some money too, to turn tortoise enclosure into a beautiful part of garden landscape.

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

Sorry for the delay in my reply! But hopefully Alex has answered your queries for now😊
I’m sure your little girl is going to be ok, she sounds feisty❤️

 

[The_Four_Toed_Edward]

I am sure he will recover with the tips Alex gave you. Please keep us updated!

 

[Yingg]

Calcium powder is okay to use just once a week. So it doesn't mess with intake of other microelements. Cuttlebone should be just available to satisfy "calcium cravings", they can ignore it for months.

What kind of Mazuri do you use? If it's Classic 5M21 - I would advise against it (high protein, low fiber - not what she needs now). Mazuri LS should be okay. Start with 1 pellet mushed with romaine lettuce (think of it like of salt or pepper).

You can soak her without towel. Unless there is a lot of new growth, watering the shell does nothing (old keratin does not absorb water). 30 minutes every other day is a good routine, no need to change it.

She always should have access to clean fresh water and be able to self-soak if she needs to. So she needs a large enough water dish when outside.

Keeping her outside 24/7 in adequate weather is your goal. A secure pen out of wooden pallets (you can get them for free often) would be great or a chicken coop out of wielded wire. Maybe your mother will agree to invest some money too, to turn tortoise enclosure into a beautiful part of garden landscape.

i use mazuri LS! i'm worried that the weather here will get too cold at night, and my mom will complain that the outdoor pen is too ugly if it's not in use during the winter. i currently let her roam freely in the yard with a ribbon taped to her shell for visibility, though she goes inside for maybe 16-18 hours when it gets dark/cold. i'll try to improve this, as well as upgrade her indoor enclosure. i feel bad having it so small, when i walk up to her she comes to me like she knows she's going to be let out for a walk. she's so sweet, i will try my best to make up for years of neglect. thank you everyone for the tips and support! as a worried tortoise owner who overthinks lots, i will definitely update everyone!

 

[Yingg]

i use mazuri LS! i'm worried that the weather here will get too cold at night, and my mom will complain that the outdoor pen is too ugly if it's not in use during the winter. i currently let her roam freely in the yard with a ribbon taped to her shell for visibility, though she goes inside for maybe 16-18 hours when it gets dark/cold. i'll try to improve this, as well as upgrade her indoor enclosure. i feel bad having it so small, when i walk up to her she comes to me like she knows she's going to be let out for a walk. she's so sweet, i will try my best to make up for years of neglect. thank you everyone for the tips and support! as a worried tortoise owner who overthinks lots, i will definitely update everyone!

might also need to make a thread for her (possibly) swollen eyes, that could also be an issue (

 

[Alex and the Redfoot]

i use mazuri LS! i'm worried that the weather here will get too cold at night, and my mom will complain that the outdoor pen is too ugly if it's not in use during the winter. i currently let her roam freely in the yard with a ribbon taped to her shell for visibility, though she goes inside for maybe 16-18 hours when it gets dark/cold. i'll try to improve this, as well as upgrade her indoor enclosure. i feel bad having it so small, when i walk up to her she comes to me like she knows she's going to be let out for a walk. she's so sweet, i will try my best to make up for years of neglect. thank you everyone for the tips and support! as a worried tortoise owner who overthinks lots, i will definitely update everyone!

Here is one of the examples of "not ugly" pens.

Star Tortoise Garden @ StarTortoises.net

Caring for Burmese star (Geochelone platynota) and Indian / Sri Lankan star (Geochelone elegans) tortoises. Plus info on angulate (Chersina angulata) and golden Greek (Testudo graeca ssp) tortoises.

startortoises.net

They can really be made a "jewel of the garden". But if your garden is safely fenced and "tortoise proofed" - you may leave her to explore the whole place.

Getting her inside for the night is a working strategy, they get used to such routine. And yes, they learn when it's time to get outside and may scratch the glass, for example, when they want to go for a walk.

 

[Yingg]

Here is one of the examples of "not ugly" pens.

Star Tortoise Garden @ StarTortoises.net

Caring for Burmese star (Geochelone platynota) and Indian / Sri Lankan star (Geochelone elegans) tortoises. Plus info on angulate (Chersina angulata) and golden Greek (Testudo graeca ssp) tortoises.

startortoises.net

They can really be made a "jewel of the garden". But if your garden is safely fenced and "tortoise proofed" - you may leave her to explore the whole place.

Getting her inside for the night is a working strategy, they get used to such routine. And yes, they learn when it's time to get outside and may scratch the glass, for example, when they want to go for a walk.

oh alright ^^ill definitely look into those, thanks! i just came back from the vet and they want to sedate my tortoise for a beak trim??? it costed $200. i saw my old vet do it without sedation (my tortoise is really chill...) so i'll probably have to go back to the old vet.

 

[Alex and the Redfoot]

oh alright ^^ill definitely look into those, thanks! i just came back from the vet and they want to sedate my tortoise for a beak trim??? it costed $200. i saw my old vet do it without sedation (my tortoise is really chill...) so i'll probably have to go back to the old vet.

Yes, your previous vet was a better one from what you've told. You can also do a beak trim at home with nail clippers or nail file (the hardest part is to catch tortoise head - with your thumb and index fingers from neck sides, just behind the ears).

 

[Yingg]

Yes, your previous vet was a better one from what you've told. You can also do a beak trim at home with nail clippers or nail file (the hardest part is to catch tortoise head - with your thumb and index fingers from neck sides, just behind the ears).

good news, i pulled the "i don't have enough money" and now they decided to do it without sedation... i mean, she is a VERY chill tortoise. she doesn't really get scared or hiss at anyone except my mom for some reason. i don't think not having sedation would be a problem. on that note, i'll definitely be upgrading my husbandry and other stuff. i think after a year, if she gets better, then all is well. but if she gets worse then it's definitely a liver/other health issue. by then i can take her to the vet without my mom knowing. i hope i can take her to college with me ^^ i think that's a solid plan.

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

That’s good! I don’t think they’ll need sedation either if it’s been done before without🙂

Yes that sounds good! I can’t remember if I’ve ever pasted how I’d personally set up for an adult Russian, so figured I’d include it here if it can help give you an idea on how to upgrade your indoor enclosure as cost effectively as possible, hopefully it helps😊

I’m including the appropriate indoor uv, if your guy is primarily housed outdoors, you may not need it, but if housed inside for a good portion of the year, I’d add it.

Basking light should be an incandescent floodlight(example attached) on a 12 hour timer.

Basking temperature directly under the floodlight should be 95-100f. The rest of the enclosure should be ranging 75-80 during the day.

You may also wish to add ambient lighting on the same timer, providing shady areas with hides and safe plants.

Then CHE/CHE’s(ceramic heat emitters) always on a thermostat, for night heat if your house drops below 60’s at night. Set the thermostat for a night temperature place the probe in their cooler end, plug the che into it and the thermostat into the mains, it’ll be plugged in 24/7 but will only turn on when the temperature drops. If your house stays in the 60’s don’t worry about this!

Uv should be a t5 fluorescent tube, avoid the compact and coil uv bulbs, they don’t give out enough uv and can hurt the tortoises eyes. The uv can be on a 4 hour timer from noon. I’ve attached examples of the two brands to go for and some examples of how to mount them.

With lighting always avoid anything labelled halogen or mercury vapour.

For substrates, either coco coir, dampened and packed down by hand as a base, with a layer of orchid(fir not pine) bark or forest floor on top, or just the orchid bark/forest floor. Never use anything with sand mixed in, no top soils and no kinds of moss.

You want to aim to have the bottom layer of substrate damp, to do this pour lukewarm water into the corners, not loads but enough to dampen the entire bottom layer. To stop that top layer getting a little too dry/dusty, mix the substrate now n then. Check your monitors and substrate to do the pours as and when needed.

I’d personally recommend making your own base to go as big as you can go for the space you have. The closer you can get to a 8x4 size the better, but again if yours is primarily housed in a large outdoor space, you’ll get away with something a bit smaller for whilst they’re inside. They still do need plenty of roaming room though.

When making your base, just make sure the material is safe, some use flower beds, or take a large bookcase, take out the shelves and lie flat, or just make their own, for all these options I’d line with cheap pond liner to protect the base, making sure the liner goes up the sides too and make sure those sides are deep enough! They can be professional escape artists😂

I’ve also included examples of stands people make/buy to hang their lighting, use a temperature gun to determine how high the basking bulb needs to be, the uv I suggested needs to be mounted 18-20 inches from the substrate. Dome fittings help project the heat downwards in an open top design, just never rely solely on the clamp fittings that come with them, always hang securely.

For a water dish a shallow terracotta saucer is considered safest, they have grip in the event your tortoise flips themselves, most pet store options are a known hazard.

I’d also always recommend getting your hands on a temp gun, they’re SO handy when setting up a new environment or for checking your monitors are correct🙂

 

[Yingg]

That’s good! I don’t think they’ll need sedation either if it’s been done before without🙂

Yes that sounds good! I can’t remember if I’ve ever pasted how I’d personally set up for an adult Russian, so figured I’d include it here if it can help give you an idea on how to upgrade your indoor enclosure as cost effectively as possible, hopefully it helps😊

I’m including the appropriate indoor uv, if your guy is primarily housed outdoors, you may not need it, but if housed inside for a good portion of the year, I’d add it.

Basking light should be an incandescent floodlight(example attached) on a 12 hour timer.

Basking temperature directly under the floodlight should be 95-100f. The rest of the enclosure should be ranging 75-80 during the day.

You may also wish to add ambient lighting on the same timer, providing shady areas with hides and safe plants.

Then CHE/CHE’s(ceramic heat emitters) always on a thermostat, for night heat if your house drops below 60’s at night. Set the thermostat for a night temperature place the probe in their cooler end, plug the che into it and the thermostat into the mains, it’ll be plugged in 24/7 but will only turn on when the temperature drops. If your house stays in the 60’s don’t worry about this!

Uv should be a t5 fluorescent tube, avoid the compact and coil uv bulbs, they don’t give out enough uv and can hurt the tortoises eyes. The uv can be on a 4 hour timer from noon. I’ve attached examples of the two brands to go for and some examples of how to mount them.

With lighting always avoid anything labelled halogen or mercury vapour.

For substrates, either coco coir, dampened and packed down by hand as a base, with a layer of orchid(fir not pine) bark or forest floor on top, or just the orchid bark/forest floor. Never use anything with sand mixed in, no top soils and no kinds of moss.

You want to aim to have the bottom layer of substrate damp, to do this pour lukewarm water into the corners, not loads but enough to dampen the entire bottom layer. To stop that top layer getting a little too dry/dusty, mix the substrate now n then. Check your monitors and substrate to do the pours as and when needed.

I’d personally recommend making your own base to go as big as you can go for the space you have. The closer you can get to a 8x4 size the better, but again if yours is primarily housed in a large outdoor space, you’ll get away with something a bit smaller for whilst they’re inside. They still do need plenty of roaming room though.

When making your base, just make sure the material is safe, some use flower beds, or take a large bookcase, take out the shelves and lie flat, or just make their own, for all these options I’d line with cheap pond liner to protect the base, making sure the liner goes up the sides too and make sure those sides are deep enough! They can be professional escape artists😂

I’ve also included examples of stands people make/buy to hang their lighting, use a temperature gun to determine how high the basking bulb needs to be, the uv I suggested needs to be mounted 18-20 inches from the substrate. Dome fittings help project the heat downwards in an open top design, just never rely solely on the clamp fittings that come with them, always hang securely.

For a water dish a shallow terracotta saucer is considered safest, they have grip in the event your tortoise flips themselves, most pet store options are a known hazard.

I’d also always recommend getting your hands on a temp gun, they’re SO handy when setting up a new environment or for checking your monitors are correct🙂

oh i've got a temp gun. (not sure where it is, but i have one...) and i'll buy some fir bark online or orchid (whichever is cheaper/better!) i really like your setup. sadly my mom won't let me get a bigger setup than 44x34 inch... i tried asking for it to be bigger but she wouldn't budge thanks so much for the lighting recommendations! i might just get exactly what you get to be sure. 🙏 tortoise came back from beak trim, so i'll send pictures when i can!

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

They’re just some examples, our enclosure is set up different because we have a red foot, that we also have to house a big boa constrictor viv on top of lol.

Yeah definitely find your temp gun out, they are very handy🙂

What substrate is it you’ve been using out of interest?

For the amount of time the tortoise is in there currently, that is still very small, I’m sorry you’re having a hard time convincing your mom😣I really hope you can make her aware how vital it is for tortoise to have enough space to roam.

Is it possible you could start thinking about building a larger outdoor enclosure? If indoor space is the issue. You can also build a large secure heated box for night time/colder weather. It will keep her safe and could be made bigger than the indoor table so she’ll have more room for when she has to be in there. Just a thought🙂

I know you try and get her out as much as possible, but if it’s not for over half the amount of her waking hours daily, it might be a struggle to see if that weight can start to come off/ see more of the potential benefits to her health.

 

[Yingg]

They’re just some examples, our enclosure is set up different because we have a red foot, that we also have to house a big boa constrictor viv on top of lol.

Yeah definitely find your temp gun out, they are very handy🙂

What substrate is it you’ve been using out of interest?

For the amount of time the tortoise is in there currently, that is still very small, I’m sorry you’re having a hard time convincing your mom😣I really hope you can make her aware how vital it is for tortoise to have enough space to roam.

Is it possible you could start thinking about building a larger outdoor enclosure? If indoor space is the issue. You can also build a large secure heated box for night time/colder weather. It will keep her safe and could be made bigger than the indoor table so she’ll have more room for when she has to be in there. Just a thought🙂

I know you try and get her out as much as possible, but if it’s not for over half the amount of her waking hours daily, it might be a struggle to see if that weight can start to come off/ see more of the potential benefits to her health.

yeah, that's totally an issue... though i'm worried since when she's outside she walks to find a place to sleep then hunkers down. and she'll stay like that for a while. she's out for freedom and natural light, yet all she does is dig a hole 😭 anyway, here is her beak trim. they said that's all they could get without sedation...

also, i did actually mention a larger enclosure to my mom and she immediately shot it down and said it was ridiculous. how big do you think is the... smallest an enclosure should be? it sounds so bad when i'm asking this... should i aim to let her out 10-12 hours a day? in that case, is this 44x34 enclosure more "okay"?

 

[Alex and the Redfoot]

yeah, that's totally an issue... though i'm worried since when she's outside she walks to find a place to sleep then hunkers down. and she'll stay like that for a while. she's out for freedom and natural light, yet all she does is dig a hole 😭 anyway, here is her beak trim. they said that's all they could get without sedation...

also, i did actually mention a larger enclosure to my mom and she immediately shot it down and said it was ridiculous. how big do you think is the... smallest an enclosure should be? it sounds so bad when i'm asking this... should i aim to let her out 10-12 hours a day? in that case, is this 44x34 enclosure more "okay"?

Beak looks okay now. It will file down on its own at this point.

If she looks for a safe place outside - it's okay. They need to hide somewhere when it's too hot/too cold/too open/too strong sunlight. Also they need some time (from weeks to months) to get used to a new space and then start exploring.

With a whole day outside you don't need much indoors space, 4x3 feet will be enough. In the winter time outdoors is limited, so you have to think what to do. Maybe some kind of temporary extension.

Her edema/fat looks a bit better to me (at least on one of the photos).

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

Aw her beak looks loads better! That’ll wear down now if you continue serving on slate😁

If you’re in a climate that allows you to safely let her out for that long, that would be great! Something like a 4x3 would work when you have to bring her in, come winter she would ideally need a bigger space though