edema vs fat

[Yingg]

hello, some of the more active members here probably already know me.

but for those of you who don't, i have a 15 year old russian. my last vet (who didn't really have great credentials) said she had edema and POSSIBLE liver failure. i went to another vet who was closer to home. for reference, i am still in highschool so i have to work by myself to get enough money for vet appointments. my mom drives me as well. i am trying to get help for my tortoise so she won't suffer anymore. however, the vet i just came back from says that my tortoise is healthy, and she is just fat.

this vet throws me off though. i told her i had a small enclosure and she said it was fine instead of telling me to upgrade it (i'm building a new one right now, don't worry) and she suspected my tortoise had bacterial issues so she told me to soak her less often (i soak her every other day only.) my mom won't let me spend money on my tortoise's treatments if she does need any, because she thinks that it's okay as long as it doesn't make my tortoise die. i just want the tort to have the best life.

this is going to be a long backstory, i'm sorry beforehand.

i didn't know how to care for tortoises since i got mine at a young age. i've recently discovered this forum and finally am upgrading her setup. i got a job and i think i can earn enough for vet bills, but not if i am constantly switching vets. my recent visit (only 15 min) was $200. my enclosure is quite small, but it has the correct temps. i let her out to walk every other day for natural sun. i soak her too.

her "fat" has long been a concern for me- though it was gradual, and it's been a few years since she had it. that's why i thought it was fat at first and thought nothing of it. thanks to my old vet and this forum, i learned it could be liver failure. i used to feed her lettuce and some fruit rarely, since the pet smart people told me to do that. i think liver issues (if it is liver issues) may have arose from the fruit/improper diet/metabolism. i'd like to know how to tell fat apart from edema/water retention. i'm giving as much detail as possible so people can give me good information/tips. i'm going to attach pictures of my tortoise. thank you all.

i'd link a past forum i made, but i don't know how to. if anyone could do it for me i would be thankful. it is the one titled "dry shell" which contains a lot of my thoughts/info. many of these pictures are from a while back. you can see how the "fat" hasn't changed much.

 

[The_Four_Toed_Edward]

Is this the thread you tried to link: https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/dry-tortoise-shell.215909/ ? You can share threads like any website. Depending on the browser you use, you just go to share and then choose to copy the link. I am not good at diagnosing edema from pictures but I will try to link some people @Tom @Yvonne G @wellington @zovick

You can use the search function on this forum to search up on other peoples experiences with edema and liver issues. Overall I would say that fat tortoises are very rare and you are making the right improvements.

 

[wellington]

If you can fence off an area outside and make it escape proof, and leave her out there every day and bring her in at night that's what you should do. Getting her the proper size enclosure may solve the problem if she is infact overweight. Tortoises kept in too small enclosures can become overweight.
For now, seeing she acts fine in every other way, I would really work on the bigger enclosure.

 

[Tom]

hello, some of the more active members here probably already know me.

but for those of you who don't, i have a 15 year old russian. my last vet (who didn't really have great credentials) said she had edema and POSSIBLE liver failure. i went to another vet who was closer to home. for reference, i am still in highschool so i have to work by myself to get enough money for vet appointments. my mom drives me as well. i am trying to get help for my tortoise so she won't suffer anymore. however, the vet i just came back from says that my tortoise is healthy, and she is just fat.

this vet throws me off though. i told her i had a small enclosure and she said it was fine instead of telling me to upgrade it (i'm building a new one right now, don't worry) and she suspected my tortoise had bacterial issues so she told me to soak her less often (i soak her every other day only.) my mom won't let me spend money on my tortoise's treatments if she does need any, because she thinks that it's okay as long as it doesn't make my tortoise die. i just want the tort to have the best life.

this is going to be a long backstory, i'm sorry beforehand.

i didn't know how to care for tortoises since i got mine at a young age. i've recently discovered this forum and finally am upgrading her setup. i got a job and i think i can earn enough for vet bills, but not if i am constantly switching vets. my recent visit (only 15 min) was $200. my enclosure is quite small, but it has the correct temps. i let her out to walk every other day for natural sun. i soak her too.

her "fat" has long been a concern for me- though it was gradual, and it's been a few years since she had it. that's why i thought it was fat at first and thought nothing of it. thanks to my old vet and this forum, i learned it could be liver failure. i used to feed her lettuce and some fruit rarely, since the pet smart people told me to do that. i think liver issues (if it is liver issues) may have arose from the fruit/improper diet/metabolism. i'd like to know how to tell fat apart from edema/water retention. i'm giving as much detail as possible so people can give me good information/tips. i'm going to attach pictures of my tortoise. thank you all.

i'd link a past forum i made, but i don't know how to. if anyone could do it for me i would be thankful. it is the one titled "dry shell" which contains a lot of my thoughts/info. many of these pictures are from a while back. you can see how the "fat" hasn't changed much.

How might we already know you?

Where in CA are you? Very different advice for Palm Springs vs. Santa Barbara. We don't need specifics, just a general idea of the city or region.

As you've seen, vets don't know much about tortoises and tortoise care. The tortoise looks fine, and the issue is likely due to good health and a small enclosure. You be better off saving your money and spending it on larger enclosures both indoors and out. There is nothing a vet will be able to do for this, as you have already seen. Spend your time, money and effort making the enclosures as large as you can.

Here is the info on how to care for your tortoise. Read through these at least a couple of time each. Questions are welcome.

Info For New People. Please Read This First.

Hello and welcome to tortoiseforum.org! We are all glad you are here! There is no other forum like this anywhere. We have tens of thousands of members from all over the world ranging from kids with their first tortoise to people who have been breeding and keeping high end tortoises since the...

tortoiseforum.org

The Best Way To Raise Any Temperate Species Of Tortoise

I chose the title of this care sheet very carefully. Are there other ways to raise babies and care for adults? Yes. Yes there are, but those ways are not as good. What follows is the BEST way, according to 30 years of research and experimentation with hundreds of babies of many species. What is...

tortoiseforum.org

 

[Yvonne G]

When tortoises live in small enclosures where they don't have much room to do a lot of walking, they get fat.

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

How might we already know you?

They have another ongoing thread with lots of interaction so I believe that’s what they mean

I can feel the concern through each post and I really sympathiseI’d be feeling the exact same way if I was noticing some of the symptoms this person has noticed in their tortoise
Whilst I can’t in any way say if this is indeed edema or just fat, my gut is telling me some further investigation may be needed down the line. But who knows! Things may very well start improving soon!

For now @Yingg keep making the changes you need to make based on all the previous advice(you’re doing great and should be very proud of yourself)keep with the treatments, and for now, let’s closely monitor and see if things start to improve, keep us in the loop on their progress, if any new symptoms come up that worry you, please post on this thread and we’ll go from there. Wishing you and your little one all the best from the uk

 

[mark1]

your tortoise does not look good to me...... his beak and nails do not appear normal, as in a wild tortoise...... aside from the swelling/fat, his eyes don't look great..... two pics i attached below below look like healthy tortoises to me.......

you might want to look into his diet, a large enclosure and feed him less..... if you have the ability to make an outside pen and keep him outside, it'd be a better investment than anything a vet can do for him.......

imo, liver disease is not a bad guess....... people who look into causes of death in reptiles, necropsies, seem to think liver disease is common.... hepatic lipidosis being one..... imo, only thing that can be done is proper diet, large appropriate enclosure, and feed him less........ how much and often a wild tortoise eats is for the most part misunderstood...... the advantage to being "cold blooded" is how little energy it takes.......

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

your tortoise does not look good to me...... his beak and nails do not appear normal, as in a wild tortoise...... aside from the swelling/fat, his eyes don't look great.....

I believe they’ve had a recent beak trim at the vet since these photosI agree the nails look very long, I’m guessing it’s due to previous lack of roaming, hopefully it improves in time

 

[mark1]

the fact it needed trimmed tells me it was more abnormal than it is now.....

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

the fact it needed trimmed tells me it was more abnormal than it is now.....

Mmm it’s a tricky one, there’s definitely a number of things concerning the owner here and I understand why, I wish I myself could be of more help, but I’ll admit some of the symptoms are out of my depth of expertise

 

[Yingg]

your tortoise does not look good to me...... his beak and nails do not appear normal, as in a wild tortoise...... aside from the swelling/fat, his eyes don't look great..... two pics i attached below below look like healthy tortoises to me.......

you might want to look into his diet, a large enclosure and feed him less..... if you have the ability to make an outside pen and keep him outside, it'd be a better investment than anything a vet can do for him.......

imo, liver disease is not a bad guess....... people who look into causes of death in reptiles, necropsies, seem to think liver disease is common.... hepatic lipidosis being one..... imo, only thing that can be done is proper diet, large appropriate enclosure, and feed him less........ how much and often a wild tortoise eats is for the most part misunderstood...... the advantage to being "cold blooded" is how little energy it takes.......

hello, the beak trim is going to happen tuesday. she needed to be sedated so i had to wait a bit. i also don't quite understand the swelling eyes bit. i'm not sure how bad my tortoise's eyes are, swelling-wise. if they are bad, what should i do other than adjusting husbandry?

 

[Yingg]

How might we already know you?

Where in CA are you? Very different advice for Palm Springs vs. Santa Barbara. We don't need specifics, just a general idea of the city or region.

As you've seen, vets don't know much about tortoises and tortoise care. The tortoise looks fine, and the issue is likely due to good health and a small enclosure. You be better off saving your money and spending it on larger enclosures both indoors and out. There is nothing a vet will be able to do for this, as you have already seen. Spend your time, money and effort making the enclosures as large as you can.

Here is the info on how to care for your tortoise. Read through these at least a couple of time each. Questions are welcome.

Info For New People. Please Read This First.

Hello and welcome to tortoiseforum.org! We are all glad you are here! There is no other forum like this anywhere. We have tens of thousands of members from all over the world ranging from kids with their first tortoise to people who have been breeding and keeping high end tortoises since the...

tortoiseforum.org

The Best Way To Raise Any Temperate Species Of Tortoise

I chose the title of this care sheet very carefully. Are there other ways to raise babies and care for adults? Yes. Yes there are, but those ways are not as good. What follows is the BEST way, according to 30 years of research and experimentation with hundreds of babies of many species. What is...

tortoiseforum.org

i'm building an enclosure myself right now out of wood since it costs too much to have one shipped. i'll probably be updating this thread with pictures and such! also, i am in san jose. i'm afraid that if she does have liver failure, then it may not get better even with a larger enclosure and better husbandry. for now, she also walks outside every day.

 

[Yingg]

your tortoise does not look good to me...... his beak and nails do not appear normal, as in a wild tortoise...... aside from the swelling/fat, his eyes don't look great..... two pics i attached below below look like healthy tortoises to me.......

you might want to look into his diet, a large enclosure and feed him less..... if you have the ability to make an outside pen and keep him outside, it'd be a better investment than anything a vet can do for him.......

imo, liver disease is not a bad guess....... people who look into causes of death in reptiles, necropsies, seem to think liver disease is common.... hepatic lipidosis being one..... imo, only thing that can be done is proper diet, large appropriate enclosure, and feed him less........ how much and often a wild tortoise eats is for the most part misunderstood...... the advantage to being "cold blooded" is how little energy it takes.......

also, if liver failure is the issue, should i switch vets and pay for all the treatment for a chance of her getting better? or is my best bet to adjust my husbandry? can she live a long happy life even with liver failure/edema? (or maybe this is just fat???) thank you.

 

[mark1]

i wouldn't ......... imo, if its liver disease the only ones i think that could possibly be long term curable would be the ones caused by something that proper husbandry could resolve...... your tortoise doesn't LOOK like it's beyond recovering, but it does look unwell to me...... outside pen , and proper diet, imo would be best.....

 

[Yingg]

i wouldn't ......... imo, if its liver disease the only ones i think that could possibly be long term curable would be the ones caused by something that proper husbandry could resolve...... your tortoise doesn't LOOK like it's beyond recovering, but it does look unwell to me...... outside pen , and proper diet, imo would be best.....

okay, thank you. that makes sense. she's been fine for the past few years so i hope she gets better. i will update this thread

 

[Tom]

also, if liver failure is the issue, should i switch vets and pay for all the treatment for a chance of her getting better? or is my best bet to adjust my husbandry? can she live a long happy life even with liver failure/edema? (or maybe this is just fat???) thank you.

Your tortoise needs larger enclosures and a good diet. I wouldn't assume liver failure.

 

[Yingg]

Your tortoise needs larger enclosures and a good diet. I wouldn't assume liver failure.

yep i will update you all!