egg shells

[seanang168]

Long ago, I told the pet shop I need calcium supplement for tortoise and they sold me a small bottle with no label on it. It is a kind of white powder. I have no idea what it is. I think might be calcium carbonate. I have been using it without issue

 

[ZEROPILOT]

For what it's worth. About every other month I do a sweep collecting and testing under a microscope random poo from my pen looking for any indication of a serious parasitic event.
I don't recall ever once finding any shell particles in any poop.
Small rocks, yes. They look just like they did going in.

 

[Grandpa Turtle 144]

For what it's worth. About every other month I do a sweep collecting and testing under a microscope random poo from my pen looking for any indication of a serious parasitic event.
I don't recall ever once finding any shell particles in any poop.
Small rocks, yes. They look just like they did going in.

Thank you for your help !

 

[Beasty_Artemis]

I just leave hard boiled egg shells hidden around my tortoise table for Artemis to track down and chew on. I usually crack up the egg shells before i leave them in there. S/he is a 2 1/2 year old red foot, and i have never spotted egg shell in her poo. But she has chunks of cuttlebone too, just because she seems to think its a good snack.

 

[THBfriend]

Thank you cause I've been saying this for a long time . View attachment 207996

Your line of reasoning there doesn't make a lot of sense. I could easily reply "I have never seen a tort picking up chicken eggshells, boiling/cleaning them, and then running them through a coffee grinder until they're powder" (that's assuming of course that you're using boiled/cleaned chicken eggshells and not other types).

Some tortoises (e.g. Mediterranean species living in coastal regions) do find cuttlebone in their natural habitat, without having to go "fishing". Cuttlebone is naturally deposited on beaches, you know.

Here's a great series of articles about various calcium sources (German language, but Google Translate does a passable job). Chicken eggshell does not get a recommendation there, because there are better alternatives (e.g. cuttlebone - "Sepiaschulp" in German). The author's own tortoises prefer bones and cuttlebone over eggshell when given the choice.
If ground eggshell works for you and your tortoises, great, but don't fool yourself and others that this is "more natural" than alternatives like cuttlebone (especially not if it's chicken eggshell).

 

[Grandpa Turtle 144]

Your line of reasoning there doesn't make a lot of sense. I could easily reply "I have never seen a tort picking up chicken eggshells, boiling/cleaning them, and then running them through a coffee grinder until they're powder" (that's assuming of course that you're using boiled/cleaned chicken eggshells and not other types).

Some tortoises (e.g. Mediterranean species living in coastal regions) do find cuttlebone in their natural habitat, without having to go "fishing". Cuttlebone is naturally deposited on beaches, you know.

Here's a great series of articles about various calcium sources (German language, but Google Translate does a passable job). Chicken eggshell does not get a recommendation there, because there are better alternatives (e.g. cuttlebone - "Sepiaschulp" in German). The author's own tortoises prefer bones and cuttlebone over eggshell when given the choice.
If ground eggshell works for you and your tortoises, great, but don't fool yourself and others that this is "more natural" than alternatives like cuttlebone (especially not if it's chicken eggshell).

Well we all know what happens when we assume !
And yes in the wild I beleave torts eat bird eggs !
And if you dig back far enough on the internet you will get any answer.
But I still hope you have a great day !

 

[THBfriend]

@Grandpa Turtle 144 You didn't address a single point that the linked article brings up, instead you try to discredit it with the silly argument that you can find anything on the internet. Great job, proud of you.

 

[Grandpa Turtle 144]

@Grandpa Turtle 144 You didn't address a single point that the linked article brings up, instead you try to discredit it with the silly argument that you can find anything on the internet. Great job, proud of you.

Thank you !

 

[THBfriend]

@Grandpa Turtle 144 My pleasure.

 

[Grandpa Turtle 144]

@Grandpa Turtle 144 My pleasure.

But you haven't changed a thing ! You won't use egg shells and I won't stop ! But have a great day !

 

[TammyJ]

I am enjoying this thread a lot.
My redfoots sometimes chew on the cuttlebone, or they get it gratered and mixed with their greens now and then. They also enjoy smashed boiled eggs with the shell, and they really especially enjoy eating snails with the shell or on the half shell...but that's not for the squeamish.

 

[Anyfoot]

When my females start hitting maturity they would and some are now dropping random eggs on the surface, the other torts eat them raw, yolk, albumen and shell. Surely eggs are dropped from nests in the wild, more so for forest dwelling species, I find eggs shells on the floor regularly when I'm out walking.
Any species that goes on a beach has a chance of coming across cuttlebone at some time or other. I'll bet more Tortoises eat eggs than do cuttlebone in the wild.
Just because you see eggshell in poop doesn't mean none of the calcium from the shell wasn't absorbed.
I throw cuttlebone and egg shells in. If they want it they'll eat it if they don't they won't. Way I see it hiding calcium in a loved food is my least liked method of all three. At least with eggshells and cuttlebone they regulate their own needs.
Doesn't too much calcium powder contribute to the cause of kidney stones?

 

[Grandpa Turtle 144]

When my females start hitting maturity they would and some are now dropping random eggs on the surface, the other torts eat them raw, yolk, albumen and shell. Surely eggs are dropped from nests in the wild, more so for forest dwelling species, I find eggs shells on the floor regularly when I'm out walking.
Any species that goes on a beach has a chance of coming across cuttlebone at some time or other. I'll bet more Tortoises eat eggs than do cuttlebone in the wild.
Just because you see eggshell in poop doesn't mean none of the calcium from the shell wasn't absorbed.
I throw cuttlebone and egg shells in. If they want it they'll eat it if they don't they won't. Way I see it hiding calcium in a loved food is my least liked method of all three. At least with eggshells and cuttlebone they regulate their own needs.
Doesn't too much calcium powder contribute to the cause of kidney stones?

 

[Anyfoot]

View attachment 209002

Thanks Grandpapa.
Now you know why asked the question.
I've read lack of calcium and too much oxalates increases chances of kidney stones but also calcium supplements increase chances of kidney stones, not dietary calcium.

@Will an explanation please sir.

 

[Kapidolo Farms]

Thanks Grandpapa.
Now you know why asked the question.
I've read lack of calcium and too much oxalates increases chances of kidney stones but also calcium supplements increase chances of kidney stones, not dietary calcium.

@Will an explanation please sir.

What exactly are you asking?

Thomas Boyer DVM has given many talks on tortoise nutrition. He's a global authority and actually does research even though he is a 'practicing' Vet. In one of those talks he expressed the matter of stones are not calcium. Not one published record (science that is, not some anecdotal 'newsletter contribution) indicates the concretion mass of stuff is based on calcium. It's some combination of urea/urates etc. Not calcium. He has examined many many stones himself, not calcium.

Calcium carbonate is the best form.

On another note, I recall a study where the investigator linked the type of calcium consumed to the type of calcium crystals formed in egg tortoises lay. So different forms of calcium do make a difference. Cuttle bone has other minerals in it, than just calcium carbonate, so that's why I use it on a rotating basis with straight calcium carbonate, both with D3 added and without.

If that doesn't cover the question then please advise.

And @Grandpa Turtle 144 I call chicken feces to quote me in such a way that I'm not alerted via the TFO system. Not cool.

 

[ZEROPILOT]

In the case of my south Florida kept tortoises...They do eat cuttlebone and consume whole eggs. The eggs are fed whole as a convenience to me and I assumed that the shell was beneficial. I feed chicken and tortoise as well as finch and canary eggs that have been boiled.These appear to be digested in the gut. The "rocks" in my yard are almost certainly what they appear to be. Coral.
(This whole area is reclaimed swamp and full of sand, coral and shells.)
But these calcium rich(?)coral rocks do not disolve and are passed whole in my observation. It is possible, however, that the rocks I see that are passed are actually smaller than when they went in.
Thoughts on calcium in coral being of any benefit.

 

[Grandpa Turtle 144]

What exactly are you asking?

Thomas Boyer DVM has given many talks on tortoise nutrition. He's a global authority and actually does research even though he is a 'practicing' Vet. In one of those talks he expressed the matter of stones are not calcium. Not one published record (science that is, not some anecdotal 'newsletter contribution) indicates the concretion mass of stuff is based on calcium. It's some combination of urea/urates etc. Not calcium. He has examined many many stones himself, not calcium.

Calcium carbonate is the best form.

On another note, I recall a study where the investigator linked the type of calcium consumed to the type of calcium crystals formed in egg tortoises lay. So different forms of calcium do make a difference. Cuttle bone has other minerals in it, than just calcium carbonate, so that's why I use it on a rotating basis with straight calcium carbonate, both with D3 added and without.

If that doesn't cover the question then please advise.

And @Grandpa Turtle 144 I call chicken feces to quote me in such a way that I'm not alerted via the TFO system. Not cool.

Sorry but he ask if calcium causes stones and you said no and I left your name on it ! But I'm sorry again if it up set you . Sorry

 

[leigti]

How do you know it's plenty if they can hardly digest it?
My torts always have a bowl of ground cuttlebones and don't need restriction. With fresh egg shells they would definitely overeat themselves.

Why do you think they would over eat the egg shells versus the cuttlebone? I would think that if the eggshells have been cleaned and are dry it wouldn't make them over eat them. Maybe if they still had some goo in them they would eat more of it.
I personally don't see anything wrong with feeding eggshells.

 

[Anyfoot]

What exactly are you asking?

Thomas Boyer DVM has given many talks on tortoise nutrition. He's a global authority and actually does research even though he is a 'practicing' Vet. In one of those talks he expressed the matter of stones are not calcium. Not one published record (science that is, not some anecdotal 'newsletter contribution) indicates the concretion mass of stuff is based on calcium. It's some combination of urea/urates etc. Not calcium. He has examined many many stones himself, not calcium.

Calcium carbonate is the best form.

On another note, I recall a study where the investigator linked the type of calcium consumed to the type of calcium crystals formed in egg tortoises lay. So different forms of calcium do make a difference. Cuttle bone has other minerals in it, than just calcium carbonate, so that's why I use it on a rotating basis with straight calcium carbonate, both with D3 added and without.

If that doesn't cover the question then please advise.

And @Grandpa Turtle 144 I call chicken feces to quote me in such a way that I'm not alerted via the TFO system. Not cool.

Apologies, I wasn't clear with the question, as usual I expect the listeners to be telepathic, my Mrs is always having a go at me about not explaining myself correctly. You answered in most part but here goes.

My question is does over supplementing with calcium contribute to kidney stones?

Is getting a tortoise to unknowingly eat excessive amounts of calcium by hiding it in foods causing or contributing to kidney stones, and is feeding eggs or cuttlebone a safer option? We know an experienced keeper can give calcium supplement with no Ill effects, but is it possible for an novis to do damage by over supplementing.

Do you know if Thomas Boyer examined stones from tortoises that knowingly had a high intake of calcium supplement? If yes and he proved it was still something else like uric acid or oxalates then he proved over supplementing with calcium does not cause kidney stones.

 

[Kapidolo Farms]

Apologies, I wasn't clear with the question, as usual I expect the listeners to be telepathic, my Mrs is always having a go at me about not explaining myself correctly. You answered in most part but here goes.

My question is does over supplementing with calcium contribute to kidney stones?

Is getting a tortoise to unknowingly eat excessive amounts of calcium by hiding it in foods causing or contributing to kidney stones, and is feeding eggs or cuttlebone a safer option? We know an experienced keeper can give calcium supplement with no Ill effects, but is it possible for an novis to do damage by over supplementing.

Do you know if Thomas Boyer examined stones from tortoises that knowingly had a high intake of calcium supplement? If yes and he proved it was still something else like uric acid or oxalates then he proved over supplementing with calcium does not cause kidney stones.

He has examined many dozen, maybe hundreds of stones. They were all urate/urea concretions. But beyond his personal observation he looked at all published accounts. If the calcium overabundance were a thing, it's be out there in the published world.

This is what shows up with calcium
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=tortoise+calcium+stone

Here is a similar search for
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=tortoise+urinary+stone

Knock yourself out.

As for source ingested, smaller particles might always be more readily digested than big particles. Also keep in mind sometimes stone eating has been associated with a lack of dietary fiber or seedy items in the diet which facilitate bolus motility. If those things are calcium rich, well as long as it doesn't accumulate or block, it might not be so bad.

@Grandpa Turtle 144 thanks for letting me know, thank you much.