Female acting male?

[Update5063]

Hello, long timer lurker, first time poster. Thanks for all the great info here.

I have 2 eastern hermanns. I incubated and have cared for since they hatched 6 years ago. Since birth 1 has been noticeably larger / more rounded than the other - and is something around 40-50% heavier / bigger - despite eating the same, the smaller one is not being bullied or pushed off food.

In the last year or so the bigger of the 2 is noticeably taller, the other more flat. I believed till now they are both female - short tails, flat plastron, same length nails, same narrow V on the anal scute (I think its called) - even though 1 is much bigger.

They are really friendly, live together, no issues, but the past few weeks the smaller one has been chasing the larger one around the garden, not very often only 2-3 times, and yesterday tried to mount the larger one. Its not constant hassle - so im not worried - but just wanted to check what the experts thought.

Is this behaviour normal - or do I secretly have a male......

 

[The_Four_Toed_Edward]

Tortoises may start showing signs of aggression even after years of living together. I think that it is what you are seeing. The size diffrence is consistent with this.

"I know that some people will advise that two female tortoises will get along fine. I disagree: one will always be the underdog. At least for testudo species, if you want to keep multiple females together, you should get 3 or more. This way they are less likely to fight, and the bullying will be divided a little among them.

---

Either 3 females (with LOTS of space) or 1 male and 3+ females might work... but even then, you may find yourself needing a degree in tortoise diplomatics!"

- @biochemnerd808

Read this thread for more: https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/w...together-a-lesson-learned-the-hard-way.94114/

 

[The_Four_Toed_Edward]

Shortly said, I think you should separate these two tortoises before anything worse happens.

 

[Update5063]

Thanks but there is no aggression - apart from the couple of hours follow my leader.
I actually do have 3 - a juvenile 3 years old lives with them I hatched also.

And do you think they are both female? thanks!

 

[The_Four_Toed_Edward]

I do think that they are both female. But I also think that the couple hours of follow the leader is aggression. Group and pair dynamics can change. 3 females might work, but sometimes it stops working. Then the responsible think to do is to separate them.

 

[Update5063]

Great, thanks for the info. Understood.

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

Hello and welcome to the forum!

These two definitely need separating! tortoise of any species should NEVER be housed in pairs under any circumstances, they’re incredibly territorial, behaviours that look cute to us really aren’t, following one another and sleeping huddled up is all bullying the the tortoise world, you’ll eventually see more extreme signs of aggression, you’re already seeing some. One can effect the others growth. Anyone who tells you pairs are fine, have no idea what they’re talking about.

Small groups can be kept when there’s acres for them to wonder and you have the correct male to female ratio.

These guys are going to need separating and put into separate appropriate enclosures.

As adults they need a minimum of an 8x4 enclosure, roaming is vital to tortoise health, it aids digestion and strengthen their muscles.
Don’t think they can get away with smaller if allowed to free roam, I’d highly discourage indoor free roams, being away from their heat source means they’re being exposed to temperatures that are too low quite often, smooth surfaces like laminate flooring will wreak absolute havoc on their hip joints over time.
There’s just numerous reasons it isn’t a good idea unfortunately, harmful floor cleaners, foreign objects being swallowed, getting stuck under things they shouldn’t like shelving or sofas, low temperatures, no uv, getting hit by doors, one member has mentioned they knew someone who’s tort got their head crushed in a door jam😣, flipping hazards, smooth services, the list goes on and is endless.
They feel most comfortable and safe in a space that best mimics their natural environment, so an appropriate sized enclosure is always the ultimate goal, hopefully we can help🥰

I’m going to include some information below on an example of an appropriate indoor set up, it includes the correct levels and equipment etc
This is one way to come up with an appropriate indoor set up, including the appropriate indoor uv, but if you have an outdoor enclosure they spend a few hours in daily, you probably won’t need uv.

Basking light should be an incandescent floodlight(example attached) on a 12 hour timer.

Basking temperature directly under the floodlight should be 95-100f. The rest of the enclosure should be ranging 75-80 during the day.

You may also wish to add ambient lighting on the same timer, providing shady areas with hides and safe plants.

Then CHE/CHE’s(ceramic heat emitters) always on a thermostat, for night heat if your house drops below 60’s at night. Set the thermostat for a night temperature place the probe in their cooler end, plug the che into it and the thermostat into the mains, it’ll be plugged in 24/7 but will only turn on when the temperature drops.

Indoor Uv should be a t5 fluorescent tube, avoid the compact and coil uv bulbs, they don’t give out enough uv and can hurt the tortoises eyes. The uv can be on a 4 hour timer from noon. I’ve attached examples of the two brands to go for and some examples of how to mount them.

With lighting always avoid anything labelled halogen or mercury vapour.

For substrates, either coco coir, dampened and packed down by hand as a base, with a layer of orchid(fir not pine) bark or forest floor on top, or just the orchid bark/forest floor. Never use anything with sand mixed in, no top soils and no kinds of moss. The problem with top soil is unless you’ve composted it yourself, you don’t know what kind of plants have gone into it, it could be something toxic. Sand can irritate the eyes and be an impaction risk, moss is an impaction risk too.

You want to aim to have the bottom layer of substrate damp, to do this pour lukewarm water into the corners, not loads but enough to dampen the entire bottom layer. To stop that top layer getting a little too dry/dusty, mix the substrate now n then. Check your monitors and substrate to do the pours as and when needed.

I’d personally recommend you make your own base to go as big as you possibly can for the space you have, roaming room is vital for tortoise health, it aids in digestion and builds muscle strength. The closer you can get to an 8x4 size the better. If they have an outdoor enclosure they spend most their time, you’ll get away with a bit smaller inside, they need plenty of room to roam though.

When making your base, just make sure the material is safe, some use flower beds, or take a large bookcase, take out the shelves and lie flat, or just make their own, for all these options I’d line with cheap pond liner to protect the base, making sure the liner goes up the sides too and make sure those sides are deep enough! They can be professional escape artists😂

I’ve also included examples of stands people make/buy to hang their lighting, use a temperature gun to determine how high the basking bulb needs to be, the uv I suggested needs to be mounted 18-20 inches from the substrate.

For a water dish a shallow terracotta saucer is considered safest, they have grip in the event your tortoise flips themselves, most pet store options are a known hazard.

I’d also always recommend getting your hands on a temp gun, they’re SO handy when setting up a new environment or for checking your monitors are correct🙂

Also you may find this link below useful for some food ideas! You can buy seeds online and plant in organic soil(free of chemicals) in a planter the tortoises don’t have access to, and forage from them as they grow😊

The Tortoise Table - Home

The Tortoise Table plant database and resource site for Tortoise owners

www.thetortoisetable.org.uk

 

[Tom]

Hello, long timer lurker, first time poster. Thanks for all the great info here.

I have 2 eastern hermanns. I incubated and have cared for since they hatched 6 years ago. Since birth 1 has been noticeably larger / more rounded than the other - and is something around 40-50% heavier / bigger - despite eating the same, the smaller one is not being bullied or pushed off food.

In the last year or so the bigger of the 2 is noticeably taller, the other more flat. I believed till now they are both female - short tails, flat plastron, same length nails, same narrow V on the anal scute (I think its called) - even though 1 is much bigger.

They are really friendly, live together, no issues, but the past few weeks the smaller one has been chasing the larger one around the garden, not very often only 2-3 times, and yesterday tried to mount the larger one. Its not constant hassle - so im not worried - but just wanted to check what the experts thought.

Is this behaviour normal - or do I secretly have a male......

Tortoises should never be housed in pairs. It has always been a problem and that is why they grew so differently. Now it is becoming more of a problem, but it is a problem even if you are not seeing obvious fighting, biting and ramming.

They need to be separated. The chronic stress is not good for either of them.

Check out this thread, number 9:

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