Fighting or Courting?

[Chucky]

I've had Cheech & Chong now since 2005 and Coco since 2006 all as hatchlings. A few days ago I put Coco in with Cheech & Chong because she was getting too big with my other Sulcatas. Cheech(male) is the biggest at 16" and the two females are about 11" each.

OK, here's the problem. Cheech & Chong have been together since the beginning and the last 2 years have been mating or at least going through the actions. When I put Coco in the enclosure with them I noticed that Cheech is very aggressive with both of them by pushing them from one side of the enclosure to the other which is 8'. He's not ramming them, just pushing them. I figured maybe he's just trying to corner them so he can mate but once he gets them in the corner, he just sits there and does nothing.

I decided to take Coco out but he continued to do this with Chong afterwards so it's not because Coco was in there.

So, my question is this a type of courting ritual or is it more a fighting thing?

 

[wellington]

Are you sure of the sex of coco? If coco is a male and not female, that could be the cause of the problem. If she is really a she, you may be able to keep them together if the area is large enough and there is enough site barriers. Otherwise I would have to say it is more of a fighting thing. From what I have learned here, there really isn't a courtship that goes on. See what others say that are more experienced with actually owning them. In the mean time I would keep a close eye on cheech and chong or separate them also.[/b]

 

[Tom]

That is fighting and territorial dominance.

Cheech is technically big enough to breed, but the other two are not. You have a real compatibility problem on your hands. He's bigger than Chong because he's been hogging the food and intimidating him. He needs to be by himself for a while, but ou can't leave the other two together or the same thing will happen with them.

One thing that will help is to make the enclosure bigger. Much bigger. 8 foot square is much too small for a 16" tortoise all by himself, not to mention the other two. The best thing here would be to desperate the three of the into their own enclosures until you have an appropriately sized enclosure, you verify the sexes, and they all catch up in size a bit.

Sorry for the bad news. Things can get complicated when you have more than one...

 

[Chucky]

Thanks for the info Tom. The enclosure they are in is just a temporary one while I fix a couple spots in the yard. They do the same thing in the yard also which is about 1/4 acre. At night they get separate enclosures.

As far as I can tell, Chong & Coco are females but at 6 and 7 years old and 11" I could still be wrong. Here's a couple videos I took today with just Cheech & Chong in the enclosure.

http://youtu.be/0-wlhQXXyCU

Then I opened the door to see better. Chong gets away but comes right back.

http://youtu.be/QwjPBiw4uLU

 

[Tom]

That is a bad deal man. You need to separate them right now before one of them is seriously injured.

If you post pics of the anal scutes and tail, we can probably sex them for you. Not that it really matters in this case, but at least you will know.

 

[Chucky]

They are already separated, I put them together so I could take the video. It's funny that you asked for the anal pics because I just told my wife we needed to take pics of them. I'll get them posted up soon.

 

[wellington]

I really hope you understand how bad it can turn out if you don't separate them now. That was sad to watch. He was trying to get out, not come back for more.

 

[Livingstone]

I agree with Tom (man, I say that alot). Dont worry about the sex of the tortoises, just separate the big trouble maker from the other two.

 

[wellington]

They are already separated, I put them together so I could take the video. It's funny that you asked for the anal pics because I just told my wife we needed to take pics of them. I'll get them posted up soon.

We must have been posting at the same time. So glad you separated them.

 

[Chucky]

OK, took pics of all the bigger ones. I don't know now about their sex because some look more male than they did a few months ago. I have my idea which are which but I'll let you all give me your opinions and we'll see.

Cheech, is a male for sure. 7 years old 16"

Chong 7 years old 11"

Coco 6 years old 11"

Ivy, same age as Coco and is 10"

Let me know what you think.

 

[Livingstone]

The only one that doesn't look male is cheech, the shape of the femoral scutes looks more female, I very well could be wrong because he/she is carrying the tail to the side which is what most males do... And of course there is that aggression, but I have seen big female torts be aggressive just not as frequently as males.

I am also very happy to hear they are separated for the time being.

 

[Chucky]

Cheech is definitely a male, I seen him walking around wagging it back and forth now unless he had a snake stuck under him.

 

[expo tort]

I'm not a sulcata expert but to me that looks male across the board.

 

[Tom]

I need to see the tails to be sure. Your pics are clear, but everything is in the shadows with a bright background, and they are all covered with what I hope is dark mud. I can't make out the tail size in most of those pics.

The simple way to tell is that females have a tiny little nub for a tail. I mean like a quarter to a half inch even in an 80 pound female. Males have a big tail around 2" long and usually carry it to the side along the back of their thighs.

I can clearly see that Ivy is a male. I think is see a big tail hidden on one side for coco, so male. Can't see Chongs tail at all in the shadows. Based on behavior alone, I'm guessing chong is a male too. And Cheech does look like he has sort of feminized anal scutes, but the tail says male, and, obviously, if you've seen a penis, well no mystery there.

 

[Chucky]

Well, I was thinking the same as all of you were except for Chong who I'm not sure about yet. I'll see if I can get some better pics in the next few days or so and see if I can clean them up a bit also but it's hard, they love the mud.

Most important is they are all separated now so at least we don't have to worry about that problem for now.

Thanks for all of your inputs, I really appreciate it.

 

[Chucky]

I sent the pics to Richard Fife who has been raising Sulcatas forever and he thinks they are all males except maybe for Chong who he wasn't sure of. What Richard told me was to look at the tails and if they are long and go to the side, it's a male. Females he said are very short and usually hang straight down. I took more pics of Chong and Coco and from what Richard was saying, I'll have to say also that they are males.

So the bad part of all this is that I will need to get of some of them and get at least one female, two possibly. I'll be keeping Ivy for sure because he is an Ivory and Hoss who is 100% Ivory Het.

Coco

Chong