Free Time Projects

[Tom]

I planted two palm trees today. I think they are California palms, but anyone feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. Another member posted a thread asking about shade plants for enclosures, and @turtlesteve suggested a palm. I don't know why this never occurred to me, but what better plant to stand up to a big sulcata? I've been looking at all the different palms and deciding what type, where to buy, and whether or not to invest the time and grow from seed.

We have the giant Mexican palms, but I think these are the California palms due to the much fatter trunks.


Anyhow, I saw these two little offshoots growing from the base of one of them and decided to ask @Markw84 if they could be cut off and planted on their own. With some sound advice and a few tips, I decided to give it a try.


Mark told me the best way to remove them was with a shovel and that I should dig down and try to get some attached root to go with it. Clearly not his first rodeo because it worked perfectly:


The hardest part of the whole operation was digging the holes to plant them into. The dirt in some areas of the ranch is like concrete. It took me a couple of hours and lots of use of the heavy digging bar to make appropriate holes. My sulcatas have no problem digging right into this same dirt. I dug down nice and deep to give the roots a place to go, and then back filled it to the correct level. I brought some of the native dirt from where I got them over to the new area and I packed that all around the roots.

After planting, I made a nice basin and trickle watered them for an hour. This enclosure is currently empty of tortoises, so no need for protection:


This enclosure is where my male Sudan Sulcata lives, so I made a barrier to keep Gargantua from bulldozing my new tree on day one. He was very interested in everything I was doing in his world.


I'll keep you posted on how well they do. Hopefully in another 6 months, they will be two or three feet taller, have a nice large canopy for shade, and be out of sulcata reach. I also think the roots will be deep enough and the trunk sturdy enough that it will stand up to behemoth reptiles.

Thanks to Mark. I'm lucky to know you.

 

[Maro2Bear]

Nice job. One thing you might want to do is to trim a few of the extra branches off. The tree/root structure is now trying to keep a lot of tree growing with just a few roots. Of course, i would defer to @Markw84 before you snip. One additional tip that I have observed in hot weather locations (Kuwait, Riyadh, Tripoli) where they routinely dig up & transplant palms is to wrap the remaining fronds up with a burlap bag. This will keep the few remaining fronds covered from the bright, hot desiccating impact of the sun.

Good luck

Ogh , found this 8nfo on the pruning...

✅ Cut fronds off from the lower crown using pruning shears while the tree remains horizontal on the ground. You need to remove approximately half of the crown's leaves to prevent excessive transpiration during transplanting. Loss of water through the leaves harms the tree and stifles its recovery.

✅ Found this on wrapping fronds. Yours is probably small enough, not to worry. If the palm is tall (4 metres or more) tie up the fronds around the palm trunk when re planting the palm. Leave them tied for a couple weeks after re planting. This will reduce transpiration and reduce the palm moving in the wind.

 

[turtlesteve]

@Tom ,

It's always nice to see palm trees get planted . Couple of comments though:

The parent tree looks like it's mostly mexican fan palm Washingtonia robusta, or possibly a hybrid. This palm is so commonly used, cheap, and fast growing, that the native California palm Washingtonia filifera is rarely sold or planted. Obtaining pure W. filifera is challenging, they are occasionally sold by specialty nurseries that cater to hobbyists, and if you want the real deal, your best option is to order seed that was collected from one of the native populations, or to collect it yourself. It is very common for palms in cultivation to have mixed genetics from cross-breeding with the mexican palms, as the two species freely hybridize. This is one example where hybridization truly could threaten wild populations, because the pollen is wind dispersed and at the present time, most of the fan palms in Ca are of the non-native variety. The native stands in California seem to be so far protected by their extreme isolation. The two species are differentiated by a number of characteristics, but in addition to the fat trunk, W. filifera has more filaments on the leaves (hence the name) and it also has leaves where most of the leaf is more deeply cut (e.g. the cuts between neighboring leaflets are closer to the leaf petiole than to the leaflet tips). So your tree has the fat trunk, but has leaves that look more like W. robusta, so it could be a hybrid.

The two smaller palms are seedlings from the parent palm, not actual offsets. They could be self-pollinated from the mother palm, or pollinated from palms elsewhere - so regardless of the mother palm genetics, the seedlings are likely to be more toward W. robusta (because that will be the most abundant pollen floating around). The key to keeping these alive will be preventing the soil from drying out, since they didn't get much root mass when transplanted. It will be a bit of a challenge going into summer. If they appear to be suffering, you could cut a few of the lower leaves off (as Maro2Bear suggests) as this protects the plant from drying out via transpiration from the leaves. It's a delicate balance.

Some other palms that are perfect for your climate would be Brahea (many species, with B. armata being most common), Sabal uresana, Phoenix canariensis, and Jubaea chilensis. Brahea armata is native to northern mexico (just shy of the US border) and may have been a US native in the past. But in your climate zone, the possibilities are nearly endless, as the ideal climate zones for palm trees and tortoises overlap quite nicely. You might want to wander over to the international palm society forum (palmtalk.org) if you have time.

Edit: I'll add that I hope I haven't doomed these poor palms to death by pointing out that they're likely hybrids. We all know how much you disfavor hybridization...

 

[LasTortugasNinja]

Nice palm trees! My dad wanted a “short little palm tree” when I was a kid. He bought a tiny little tree from a street corner vendor that was only supposed to be 4 or 6 ft max heigh (no Google then, so we had to trust a salesman). To his surprise but no one else’s, the tiny little tree was 8ft tall by the end of summer, and close to 15ft tall a year or so later. He was pissed the seller just wanted to sell a plant. Lol

Google Earthed my childhood home, that tree is still there and close to 20-25 ft tall now. Think being called a dwarf palm gave it a complex.

 

[Tom]

Thanks to Mark and Steve for the tips. I'll cut back some leaves today. I wasn't worried about under watering going into summer. I was worried about over watering and root rot. The soil I transplanted with was pretty sandy, so should drain well. I can trickle water daily or every other. We've got a 100 degree spell coming Monday through Thursday this week.

@turtlesteve , These palms were planted in the 1940's and 50s. What was the hybridization situation back then? I'll get more pics of all of them today. I'd love to hear your thoughts on ID. We have three of these little fat trunk ones, and I think there are three that are 100 feet tall that must be robusta. Thank you for your help on this, and everything else too!

 

[Tom]

Nice palm trees! My dad wanted a “short little palm tree” when I was a kid. He bought a tiny little tree from a street corner vendor that was only supposed to be 4 or 6 ft max heigh (no Google then, so we had to trust a salesman). To his surprise but no one else’s, the tiny little tree was 8ft tall by the end of summer, and close to 15ft tall a year or so later. He was pissed the seller just wanted to sell a plant. Lol

Google Earthed my childhood home, that tree is still there and close to 20-25 ft tall now. Think being called a dwarf palm gave it a complex.

HA! That's what pet store people do with sulcatas too! "No, they don't get very big at all... Just put them in your yard and feed them some lettuce and tomatoes."

 

[turtlesteve]

Thanks to Mark and Steve for the tips. I'll cut back some leaves today. I wasn't worried about under watering going into summer. I was worried about over watering and root rot. The soil I transplanted with was pretty sandy, so should drain well. I can trickle water daily or every other. We've got a 100 degree spell coming Monday through Thursday this week.

@turtlesteve , These palms were planted in the 1940's and 50s. What was the hybridization situation back then? I'll get more pics of all of them today. I'd love to hear your thoughts on ID. We have three of these little fat trunk ones, and I think there are three that are 100 feet tall that must be robusta. Thank you for your help on this, and everything else too!

CA was already widely planted with Mexican fan palms a hundred years ago, so it could be filifera or a hybrid. Being so old, the palm pictured surely has some filifera genetics as a pure robusta would be much taller. This site highlights the differences:

How to recognize the difference between Washingtonia filifera and robusta? | La Palmeraie gb

The popular Washingtonia genus counts three species. The W. filifera, the W. robusta and the hybrid W. filibusta. These are however very much similar, so only

palmvrienden.net

The smaller palms definitely have some robusta features such as the leaf shape ( not so deeply cut), the gnarly brown spines, and lack of filaments. So I’d be reasonably confident in calling them hybrids.

Here is a Washingtonia planted in my front yard last year. I grew this from seed off of a supposedly pure W. filifera that was planted in a botanical garden in Savannah Ga. This palm could be filifera or a hybrid (x filibusta) but it is showing some filifera features so far - filaments and deeply cut leaves. The spines on the petiole (leaf stem) are small and green.



I have a bunch of filifera seeds that just sprouted too, so in a few years I will plant more. It’s an interesting situation here - robusta is not tolerant of our cold winters, but it handles high humidity easily. In contrast, filifera is very cold tolerant but young palms are hard to get established here due to their tendency to rot. Most of the long term survivors in the Carolinas are hybrids that carry genetics to tolerate both cold and humidity.

 

[Maro2Bear]

CA was already widely planted with Mexican fan palms a hundred years ago, so it could be filifera or a hybrid. Being so old, the palm pictured surely has some filifera genetics as a pure robusta would be much taller. This site highlights the differences:

How to recognize the difference between Washingtonia filifera and robusta? | La Palmeraie gb

The popular Washingtonia genus counts three species. The W. filifera, the W. robusta and the hybrid W. filibusta. These are however very much similar, so only

palmvrienden.net

The smaller palms definitely have some robusta features such as the leaf shape ( not so deeply cut), the gnarly brown spines, and lack of filaments. So I’d be reasonably confident in calling them hybrids.

Here is a Washingtonia planted in my front yard last year. I grew this from seed off of a supposedly pure W. filifera that was planted in a botanical garden in Savannah Ga. This palm could be filifera or a hybrid (x filibusta) but it is showing some filifera features so far - filaments and deeply cut leaves. The spines on the petiole (leaf stem) are small and green.

View attachment 295415

I have a bunch of filifera seeds that just sprouted too, so in a few years I will plant more. It’s an interesting situation here - robusta is not tolerant of our cold winters, but it handles high humidity easily. In contrast, filifera is very cold tolerant but young palms are hard to get established here due to their tendency to rot. Most of the long term survivors in the Carolinas are hybrids that carry genetics to tolerate both cold and humidity.

Great info, all interesting.

 

[Tom]

Thank you @turtlesteve for the education and the link. I've been surrounded by these things literally since birth and never taken the time to learn what the differences are. Please keep the info coming if you think of any things else!

 

[Len B]

I wish I could grow more different types of palms here. I have 2 types that do good but, I don't think they will ever get a trunk. One of them has long and very sharp spines at the base.

 

[wellington]

Now I'm jealous! Palm and Plumeria trees are my all time fave. I have 2 plumeria that I have growing and bring them in, in winter. Unfortunately i had a lot of them that i got from a lovely forum member but only 2 survived.
I have tried the cold hardy palms that some people in Illinois keep outside all year with winter blankets but just haven't been able to do it.
Yours look nice and healthy. Even the new shoot ones.

 

[turtlesteve]

Couple of palms in tortoise enclosures...

Mazari palm:


Brahea nitida:


Both of these are a little bit of a long shot here. I also have several Butia odorata (Jelly palm) which have edible fruit:

 

[Len B]

This is a group of what started out as 3 small palms that I didn't expect to survive the first winter. If I had known how well they were going to do I would have spaced them farther apart. Now I'm afraid to transplant them. And this is the one that has the spines coming out of the ground at the base A closeup of the base There is also something else going on there that I haven't noticed before. This plant gets more shade than sun during summer. I don't know what type they are, I just call them needle palms.

 

[turtlesteve]

This is a group of what started out as 3 small palms that I didn't expect to survive the first winter. If I had known how well they were going to do I would have spaced them farther apart. Now I'm afraid to transplant them. And this is the one that has the spines coming out of the ground at the base A closeup of the base There is also something else going on there that I haven't noticed before. This plant gets more shade than sun during summer. I don't know what type they are, I just call them needle palms.

The first photo is Sabal minor (dwarf palmetto), and needle palm is indeed the proper name for the other one. Many palms can be safely transplanted, including the needle palms, without special care. All species of Sabal palms are special, because damaged roots always die back to the stem. Seedlings can be moved because you can get the roots out undamaged. Huge palms (8-10' trunk or taller) can be moved, because the trunk can store water for many months until new roots can grow, provided the leaves are cut off. Digging intermediate sized ones is likely to kill them. If you decide to try, the best chance of success is to root prune it many months ahead of time. This is a strategy where you cut some (50% or so) of the roots by trenching around the palm as if you were going to dig it out. Then, you fill the trench back in. This forces it to grow new roots from the stem. The move is timed after new roots have formed but before they reach the trench, so that they are not cut when digging it.

 

[Len B]

The first photo is Sabal minor (dwarf palmetto), and needle palm is indeed the proper name for the other one. Many palms can be safely transplanted, including the needle palms, without special care. All species of Sabal palms are special, because damaged roots always die back to the stem. Seedlings can be moved because you can get the roots out undamaged. Huge palms (8-10' trunk or taller) can be moved, because the trunk can store water for many months until new roots can grow, provided the leaves are cut off. Digging intermediate sized ones is likely to kill them. If you decide to try, the best chance of success is to root prune it many months ahead of time. This is a strategy where you cut some (50% or so) of the roots by trenching around the palm as if you were going to dig it out. Then, you fill the trench back in. This forces it to grow new roots from the stem. The move is timed after new roots have formed but before they reach the trench, so that they are not cut when digging it.

Thanks, I've didn't know that about the roots dyeing back like that when damaged. I have some seedlings from the plants in the first pic that I am planning on moving in a few years. You may have just saved them from a certain death. I don't plan on moving any of the larger plants any time soon and most likely never will.

 

[tortlvr]

@Tom ,

It's always nice to see palm trees get planted . Couple of comments though:

The parent tree looks like it's mostly mexican fan palm Washingtonia robusta, or possibly a hybrid. This palm is so commonly used, cheap, and fast growing, that the native California palm Washingtonia filifera is rarely sold or planted. Obtaining pure W. filifera is challenging, they are occasionally sold by specialty nurseries that cater to hobbyists, and if you want the real deal, your best option is to order seed that was collected from one of the native populations, or to collect it yourself. It is very common for palms in cultivation to have mixed genetics from cross-breeding with the mexican palms, as the two species freely hybridize. This is one example where hybridization truly could threaten wild populations, because the pollen is wind dispersed and at the present time, most of the fan palms in Ca are of the non-native variety. The native stands in California seem to be so far protected by their extreme isolation. The two species are differentiated by a number of characteristics, but in addition to the fat trunk, W. filifera has more filaments on the leaves (hence the name) and it also has leaves where most of the leaf is more deeply cut (e.g. the cuts between neighboring leaflets are closer to the leaf petiole than to the leaflet tips). So your tree has the fat trunk, but has leaves that look more like W. robusta, so it could be a hybrid.

The two smaller palms are seedlings from the parent palm, not actual offsets. They could be self-pollinated from the mother palm, or pollinated from palms elsewhere - so regardless of the mother palm genetics, the seedlings are likely to be more toward W. robusta (because that will be the most abundant pollen floating around). The key to keeping these alive will be preventing the soil from drying out, since they didn't get much root mass when transplanted. It will be a bit of a challenge going into summer. If they appear to be suffering, you could cut a few of the lower leaves off (as Maro2Bear suggests) as this protects the plant from drying out via transpiration from the leaves. It's a delicate balance.

Some other palms that are perfect for your climate would be Brahea (many species, with B. armata being most common), Sabal uresana, Phoenix canariensis, and Jubaea chilensis. Brahea armata is native to northern mexico (just shy of the US border) and may have been a US native in the past. But in your climate zone, the possibilities are nearly endless, as the ideal climate zones for palm trees and tortoises overlap quite nicely. You might want to wander over to the international palm society forum (palmtalk.org) if you have time.

Edit: I'll add that I hope I haven't doomed these poor palms to death by pointing out that they're likely hybrids. We all know how much you disfavor hybridization...

Well said Tom. I'm an IPS member and love palms as much as torts.

 

[Ink]

I like the palms love the German Shepherd more.

 

[tortlvr]

Well said Tom. I'm an IPS member and love palms as much as torts.

Sorry I got the name wrong. Turtlesteve you gave great information.

 

[Markw84]

I like the palms love the German Shepherd more.

That's Tom's movie star dog, Seven. Most recently in the Walking Dead series as "Dog". Actually a Malinois.

 

[Ink]

So pretty, I have always had German Shepherds. Great dogs, my cardigan Welsh corgi cute but will beat them up