Grass length and nightbox

[Tom]

May be true with sulcatas but not my leopards. They seem to stick with the shorter stuff and in summer they only get food from me about once a month. The longer stuff goes mostly untouched. More the grand then some of the weeds.

Its true of all grass eating species. CDTs, SA leopards, galaps, Burmese stars...

The reason your leopards don't eat the long stuff is because they get enough food from other sources, and also because regular leopards aren't that keen on grass anyway. I don't think it would work as well with a Russian or a hermanni.

 

[wellington]

Its true of all grass eating species. CDTs, SA leopards, galaps, Burmese stars...

The reason your leopards don't eat the long stuff is because they get enough food from other sources, and also because regular leopards aren't that keen on grass anyway. I don't think it would work as well with a Russian or a hermanni.

I really don't think they like the longer stuff. They literally will be eating grass/weeds that are so short they can barely get it without dirt.
Figure the shorter the younger more tasty

 

[Tom]

I really don't think they like the longer stuff. They literally will be eating grass/weeds that are so short they can barely get it without dirt.
Figure the shorter the younger more tasty

You might be right. All I'm saying is that when the preferred food runs low, the long stuff gets eaten by any of the grass eaters. Non-grass eaters seem to like to hide in the long stuff and not eat it at all.

 

[TheLastGreen]

suggested that one of us in the United States by the stuff package it up and send it to TheLastGreen

That would be kind @maggie3fan , but I think it would be to much effort for the person that undertakes it, I could perhaps mount a heatpad (the ones I showed) on the roof of the enclosure to ensure the temps remain stable? The coldest it gets here is -2C so it could perhaps work?

 

[wellington]

That would be kind @maggie3fan , but I think it would be to much effort for the person that undertakes it, I could perhaps mount a heatpad (the ones I showed) on the roof of the enclosure to ensure the temps remain stable? The coldest it gets here is -2C so it could perhaps work?

Mounting on the roof would be fine. But if that's the only heat it won't keep it warm enough in -2c temps.

 

[TheLastGreen]

Human heat pads are not safe for tortoises. Get a Kane mat for that. A Kane mat alone won't be enough. I have to run a radiant heat panel over them too. Both the RHP and the Kane mat are connected to the same thermostat and the probe is low in the box and away from the heat sources. I can't tell how tall your box is, but the RHP needs to be no more than 10-12 inches (25-30cm) over the tortoise. I made 2x4 frames to mount them too on the inside ceiling of my boxes. Don't use a CHE or heat lamp over a larger tortoise in an outdoor box like this. It will slow-burn the carapace.

Just checked, the height is 38cm and Zvezda's carapace height is 8cm, the nightbox is, as is, only suitable for the tort for about a year max, then it needs to be expanded. She isn't a giant yet, so I'll look into the RHP, I see some for dogs etc, any recommendations?

 

[Maggie3fan]

Being that 'close friend' they were talking about, I'll explain why I said what I said.

Years ago I had a very small herd of Limousine cattle on 5 acres. I researched pasture management (before the web) and found an article that said one should occasionally mow their pastures because the cattle don't eat it if it grows too tall. Reason being it turns to cellulose and becomes unpalateable. And I believed the article because my own cows left the taller grass alone.

When I posted that on the Forum smart alec Ed Pirog (I think I'm remembering his name correctly), said grass IS cellulose long or short. And he shot me down.

But regardless of what it's called when it grows tall grass is unpalatable when it gets tall. I stand by my statement.

Hahaha! Surprised you remembered his name...He lived in California.... then moved to Georgia or somewhere...what a disagreeable personality he is...we are friends on FB...lol

 

[Maggie3fan]

That would be kind @maggie3fan , but I think it would be to much effort for the person that undertakes it, I could perhaps mount a heatpad (the ones I showed) on the roof of the enclosure to ensure the temps remain stable? The coldest it gets here is -2C so it could perhaps work?

Holy cats! What trouble? Ordering on line...put in a new package then the mail...am I being naive? What I know in my experience is once I got the mat all the rest of the care was easy. The mat is in the sleeping box, there also has an incandescent basking bulb and a che. Mary spends a lot of her time on the mat even tho the ambient temp in the shed is 85 degrees...here's the sleeping box

Mary is almost 40 pounds now...she looks small in here but...there is room for her to get off the mat but still in the box...

 

[TheLastGreen]

Thank you all for your suggestions! I've been thinking about it @maggie3fan and I realised that the nightbox should be finished before next week Monday, when I leave for Stilbaai, so I have to act quick.
I have looked around, no heat mats :
Kane
Stanfield
I have looked at alternatives like seedling trays, but they are hap hazardous sometimes, so if I used one it would be mounted on the wall.
(Also no RHP's to be found here)
I think what would be best is a CHE actually. I have 15" above the the surface of the floor, and 11.8" above the carapace,
With the CHE being a few inches long, I'll have to factor that in, and if it should be place horizontally or vertically. I think it wouldn't harm Zvezda with tge distance between the two (it would be about 75-50W) and if needed a heatpad mounted on the wall of the enclosure.
@Tom what is slowburning? Do you think it would happen with the hight between the carapace and CHE?

I do apologise if my questions seem ceaseless, but this is a fundamental part in keeping my tort healthy (especially with the unnaturally cold December we've been having)

 

[Maggie3fan]

Normally the recommended distance depending on bulb...is 12 inches to 18. How long are you gonna be gone? Possibly you could google pig farms around you and ask about "farrowing pads" that's actual pig blankets...for piglets to be born on. Is your tort going to be alone?

 

[TheLastGreen]

I'm gone until the 15'th of January. I do luckily have someone to feed and check up on Zvezda. Could a lower wattage be used if the distance is too short?

 

[Maggie3fan]

I'm gone until the 15'th of January. I do luckily have someone to feed and check up on Zvezda. Could a lower wattage be used if the distance is too short?

Yes...2 weeks is not too long...gonna keep posting? Take more photos for us...

 

[Tom]

Thank you all for your suggestions! I've been thinking about it @maggie3fan and I realised that the nightbox should be finished before next week Monday, when I leave for Stilbaai, so I have to act quick.
I have looked around, no heat mats :
Kane
Stanfield
I have looked at alternatives like seedling trays, but they are hap hazardous sometimes, so if I used one it would be mounted on the wall.
(Also no RHP's to be found here)
I think what would be best is a CHE actually. I have 15" above the the surface of the floor, and 11.8" above the carapace,
With the CHE being a few inches long, I'll have to factor that in, and if it should be place horizontally or vertically. I think it wouldn't harm Zvezda with tge distance between the two (it would be about 75-50W) and if needed a heatpad mounted on the wall of the enclosure.
@Tom what is slowburning? Do you think it would happen with the hight between the carapace and CHE?

I do apologise if my questions seem ceaseless, but this is a fundamental part in keeping my tort healthy (especially with the unnaturally cold December we've been having)

That is too close for a CHE. They can burn at over 600 degrees at the surface. CHE's and heat lamps aren't good for larger tortoises, and they are not effective either. The heat from above can't warm the core of a large tortoise, especially when the surrounding air is cool/cold, and their plastron is resting on a cool surface.

Slow-burning is how I describe the heat damage from these devices on the top of a tortoise carapace. The temperature may not be hot enough to ignite and actually burn like with flames and smoke, but the temperature of the carapace of a larger tortoise resting under one of these at too close a distance gets hot enough to kill the tissue and do damage over time. Sometimes the keratin just dries up and cracks or flakes off, and other times it literally disfigures the top of the carapace. I see it here all the time. My climate is reasonably mild. We have warm sunny days most of the year, but we have occasional cold spells in winter where the night temp can drop into the 30s and even slightly below freezing once in a while. Some how people have the idea that a dogloo or dog house with a CHE is an adequate way to keep their tortoise warm on these cold nights. It isn't. It doesn't work at all. It slow-burns the top of the carapace, while the rest of the tortoise remains much too cold. This is what led me to design and evolve my tortoise boxes that I use and recommend. I've tried all sorts of different box configurations, and heating strategies over many years, and I have found what works best and is also most efficient since electricity is expensive here. When people do their own experiments recording temps and watt usage, they arrive at the same findings that I did. Nobody has to learn this lesson the hard way anymore once they find TFO.

 

[TheLastGreen]

I see, if the core isn't warm it'll kill gut flora, and eventually the tort. By large do you mean larger than a russian or herman (smaller species), or fully grown adults of a certain/the same species?
So I need heat from the top and bottom.
No kane mats, no RHP here, so I'll have to think. A heatpad on the walls could work, I thought air temperature was enough, but clearly not.
So I need a hard plastic, non scratchable mat like the farrowing mat @maggie3fan suggested for beneath the tort. I'll check but the chances are low that I'll find one (I have checked for around here but no luck).
Just want to make sure, seedling heat mats are bad right? (I see some use them and some don't)
(It seems I'm royally screwed)

 

[Markw84]

Being that 'close friend' they were talking about, I'll explain why I said what I said.

Years ago I had a very small herd of Limousine cattle on 5 acres. I researched pasture management (before the web) and found an article that said one should occasionally mow their pastures because the cattle don't eat it if it grows too tall. Reason being it turns to cellulose and becomes unpalateable. And I believed the article because my own cows left the taller grass alone.

When I posted that on the Forum smart alec Ed Pirog (I think I'm remembering his name correctly), said grass IS cellulose long or short. And he shot me down.

But regardless of what it's called when it grows tall grass is unpalatable when it gets tall. I stand by my statement.

@Yvonne G You are correct! Shorter grass is definitely preferred and more nutritious than taller grass. Lots of studies with Galapagos on their grazing preferences and then studying the nutritional profile of what they eat. All tortoises I have kept will eat shorter grass over taller grass whenever they have a choice. The studies showed they can tell the difference in nitrogen and protein levels and other nutrients that shorter/younger grass has and will seek that out leaving taller grass alone. In my own Galapagos yard, they will graze an area an keep it shorter than the rest of the yard and continually come back to graze that shorter area first over other areas. I even have to mow other areas while their grazing spots remain quite close-clipped. My sulcatas were the same way.