Greek Tortoise questions

[Warhawk]

Okay so my son got a Greek tortoise and turns out there is a little more involved to care for than he lead me to believe. In his defense there is a lot of info out there and the sales person didn't really give us good info so we are playing a bit of catch up.

We have the Greek Tortoise (Stanley) in a plastic tub 36"x18" but we know he needs something bigger. For that I'm looking at building him a Tortoise table, still unsure the size but thinking 4'x3'.

So my first question is 4'x3' big enough for one adult? Follow up question is does it have to rectangle or can I do a L shape table with the same floor space?

Second question on the substrate. I see they need a mix of sand and dirt (50/50) but how often does that need to be changed out? Or do we need to change it all out or just spot clean the droppings out and add more substrate every few weeks to keep it at the same level?

Thanks

 

[Yvonne G]

No, you'll need something much bigger for an adult Greek tortoise. And outside is even better. Indoors, you can use a horse trough, a couple of plastic bins connected together, an old book case with the shelves removed. THere are plenty of options.

We've grown away from using a mixture of sand and something else. Most often now hobbyists use coco coir or even dirt from the garden. My preference is orchid bark, the small variety.

I don't change substrate for about a year. I spot clean and keep old food picked out.

 

[tglazie]

To answer your question, four by three is not big enough. I would say three by six is a minimum, but if my boy Graecus was confined to that small space, he would furiously spend all of his time attempting escape. During the few short months when he is indoors, I keep him in a kiddie pool that is six feet in diameter, and even this gets his goat. I keep my boy outdoors most of the year, in a spacious six by eighteen run, though given his energy level, he could easily be comfortable in five times this size area, utilizing every square inch. Bottom line is that tortoises need space. The more space you can give them, the happier they will be. In the wild, their territory can range for miles, and though it isn't necessary to have an enclosure THAT large, it is important to remember that tortoises love to roam, and allowing them the space to do so is of the utmost importance.

Now, this depends upon where you live, of course, but outdoor spaces are the best. If that is impossible (which to me would be unthinkable, but I've known keepers who have come up with some interesting indoor enclosure designs in the bitter cold of the great white north), then a space that is at least three by six is what is required.

As for your question concerning the substrate, if the enclosure is large enough, one doesn't have to change substrate more than once every few months. My outdoor enclosures are so large that I never clean them. I rake the leaves out of them to pile into the compost heap, and I turn the soil in the bald spots, after which I plant fresh graze. Pillbugs generally break down the feces into an easily degradable product, and to be honest, they're so quick and efficient at it that I rarely notice the tortoise feces unless they go number two in the water dish, which happens rather often. Now, if your enclosure is small, then substrate changes are going to be a weekly, maybe even daily maintenance requirement, which is a giant drag. That's always the thing with turtles and tortoises both. The larger the enclosure, the less labor intensive the upkeep. Another note, I know that Chris' caresheet says 50/50 sand/soil, but don't use sand. If you're going to use sand, use maybe five percent, tops. Sand can cause impaction if ingested, but if you have sand in the substrate at around five percent, that really shouldn't do any harm, as it is fairly natural. But honestly, you don't need it at all. Topsoil is fine, so long as it is free of chemicals or potentially toxic additives. Several members swear by coco coire, while others are big fans of orchid bark. Honestly, any of those three should be fine. I go with topsoil because it's cheap. I just buy the cheap stuff by Scott's that costs two dollars per bag, and a bag covers quite a big of floor space.

There's a lot to keeping these tortoises, and you've really just scratched the surface. Don't hesitate to ask additional questions, for you will have a lot of them.

T.G.

 

[Warhawk]

Thanks for the info. I am familiar with the sand issues on impaction, we have some replies and don't keep them on sand for the same reason.

Not sure keeping him out side is a option because we are in Indiana and it gets kinda cold here. The summer it isn't a big deal but the winter is cold.
Building a bigger box isn't a issue but finding a spot for it in the house will be a little harder, not impossible.

 

[tglazie]

Indiana. Ouch. No offense. I'm sure it's a lovely place. But I live in South Texas. Here, the summers are simply volcanic, and the winters are so mild that schools close any time the temperatures fall below freezing. When winter comes along, I use my garage to set up the spacious indoor enclosures. This is good for several reasons. First, I can set the temperature to a daytime background temp of 75, basking area around 85 (a lot of people recommend ninety or a hundred; but my tortoises, when they're indoors, tend to lounge under the lights for way too long, even when I did have 250 watt spots at a hundred; they were getting seriously dehydrated under these conditions; with the gentler eighty five, they sit under the lamps but don't dry out so quickly; this is controversial, and it will require some experimentation on your part). Second, I can manage the humidity. Long ago, when I was still a kid in high school, I covered my enclosures to ensure the dry air of the house didn't get in. Now, with the garage set up, I just use a humidifier to get the room somewhere around sixty percent humidity. This is great, given that the torts can all live in open top containers indoors without me worrying they will suffer from dry household air that is so prevalent within my house.

Now, I keep and maintain ten tortoises, so what works for me and what will work for you are two different things. So you will have to deal with the same problem (namely, the dry air in your house) in different ways. The bone dry household air is drier than the Sahara. Most folks don't realize that for tortoises, this is entirely unnatural and leads to rapid dehydration, even for adult animals. This is one of the reasons a makeshift cover is so important. You can use an open top table (I know many folks who do), but if this is the case, then greater substrate depth and increased frequency of soaking is necessary to accommodate such changes.

Anywho, I could talk about this all day if I didn't stop myself. It's good that you have a background in keeping reptiles. That helps a lot. I remember that I was keeping green anoles, tarantulas, garter snakes, and pretty much anything I could catch in the New Mexico wild lands when my old man and I were living stateside. It certainly helped me develop a better instinct when it came to tortoise care.

T.G.

 

[Warhawk]

Yes Indiana is a great, We moved here from North Carolina and while not as hot as Texas it's much warmer there than here. Talking with my wife and son we are going to build a 6x3 table for his room, maybe this weekend. We are going to place it so the sun can shine thru the window but still have him with normal lights he needs.


Follow up question do Greek tortoise burrow? My wife is thinking it might be a Russian because he keeps digging into the substrate.

 

[leigti]

If you give us a picture will be able to tell you if it's Russian or Greek.

 

[Warhawk]

I will see if I can get a pic tonight. He was sold as a greek so assuming they know what they are talking about , but that is a leap based on what else they told us.


Another follow up question would 12" side be high enough so he won't climb out?

 

[leigti]

It wouldn't be the first time a pet store told somebody the wrong species. 12 inches probably won't be tall enough for the sides, you should have at least 4 inches of substrate, deeper if it is a Russian. If the tortoise gets on top of the substrate and stands on his hind legs if he can get his Front feet to the top of the ledge he will pull himself up and over. And I'm pretty sure that Russians can levitate anyway go for 18 inches for the sides.

 

[tglazie]

The plot thickens. Post a picture if you have a chance. Not to generalize, as not all pet shops are run by ignorant people, but pet shops are often the sources of the worst advice, and as they don't know how to care for the animal in the first place, they likely don't know anything about the animal's origin or species designation either. I remember stopping into a Petsmart last year to look around, and I saw a Hermanns in one of their tiny plexi fronted displays. A nice lady comes up and asks if I had any questions about the Testudo tortoise, and I just sighed. I told her more than she probably wanted to hear, about how I bred tortoises and that the word Testudo referred to the genus to which the tortoise belonged, a wide ranging genus with variable species and care requirements. I went on to explain that what she had in her tank was an Eastern Hermanns. She seemed interested; I'm not the best at reading people, but she did seem disappointed that her conversation with me didn't end in a sale. So yes, people in these stores often don't know anything about the animals they sell. As I am not especially well versed in the keeping of any reptile without a carapace and plastron, I often wonder how much inaccurate misinformation I'd have to sift to find the kernels of truth that took me decades of experience to acquire when it comes to tortoises.

If he's a Russian, the care is ever so slightly different. Twelve inches with a lip is okay for any Greek under six inches in length (keep in mind that I said with a lip, and the lip has to be substantial; we're talking four inches minimum). With a Russian, you might just want to cover the whole darn thing with a heavy screen top applied with a couple hinges, because Russians are more effective at escaping than Clint Eastwood was in Escape from Alcatraz. There are two types of tortoises that can escape all but the most secure enclosures. Those two are the pancake tortoises (I fostered one for a while that a nephew of mine gave up; that guy escaped a double cinderblock wall with a four inch lip; climbed over it like it was nothing; I doubled the lip, and he still kept at it), and the Russian tortoise (I hear so many escape stories concerning this species, people should just start naming their males Icarus).

T.G.

 

[leigti]

I tell you, Russians levitate hence my hardware cloth above and below. I am surprised that pancake tortoises are as mobile as they are. Anyway, after we get a picture we will know for sure.

 

[tglazie]

Yeah, that Arnie was as anti-human as tortoises get. Anytime I approached his enclosure, he would run into one of the three rock caves I put out there for him. I constructed three of these two layer rock caves, two of them back to back in a sunny spot, making a little garden tile mountain with painted strips of cut pine to form the walls and bracers, and a smaller version of this in a shaded area, so he had access to the moistened soil if he so desired, or any of three rocky caves. It ended up being a giant pain come fall or spring, given that I would have to bring him indoors at night, which meant deconstructing whatever cave in which he decided to shelter himself. Pulling a pancake from a rock crevice is impossible. If I wanted to catch him out, I'd have to sneak up on his enclosure like Rambo. He was very interesting when I managed to evade his keenly watchful eye, but honestly, most of the day, he would spend it tucked away in one of the caves. The only times he left the cave was to graze on the winter and bermuda grass I'd mixed in with my Testudo mix, either that or making an attempt to scale the walls and figure a way out. I figured six by eighteen was enough space, but that little guy just didn't enjoy captivity, I felt. My captive bred margies and my ltc ibera Graecus never make escape attempts, at least not that I've seen. But Arnie, he just saw me as another potentially dangerous predator, and it stayed that way for the two years I had him, before I adopted him out to my friend Doris, who is just crazy over him. He actually comes to her to be fed now, but she has had him for three years, and she's retired, proving that even with some of the most impersonable beasts, a relationship is often still there to be had.

But yeah, Russians, oh man. Pancakes may be able to climb, but at least they can't really dig for squat. Russians can climb, dig, and fly, and they're never satisfied with a space. I know the few I fostered never were. There's something about those steppes in central Asia, conquering nomads, the lot of 'em. The people, the goats, the lizards, the tortoises, even the rats, every one of 'em was born to roam.

T.G.