Heating & Heat Mat Question

[JoshyP]

Hi all. Quick question, I'm based in the UK and so are unable to purchase a Kane heat mat which is widely recommended on here. That said, I've found a pig heat mat (recommended by members to search for), but this doesn't have the same in-built temperature controls/safety measures a Kane heat mat has. So, my question is, what temperature should I aim for on the surface/area around the heat mat?

I'm aware what the usual recommendation is (turn it to max and place the probe in the furthest away spot from the heat source), but the enclosure has multiple heat sources placed throughout, so the heat mat being on one side has little impact on the heat at the other end of the enclosure (where it would be colder) as there is a different heat source that would heat up that part of the enclosure quicker then the heat pad would as it's further away.

For reference, the whole enclosure is kept at 30c (86f) throughout the day and. 27c-28c (81f-82f) at night. The heat mat along with an overhead RHP is what I'm wanting to use as my "basking area" and is where I'm confused. Should I adjust the thermostat accordingly for the RHP & heat mat until I get a reading of 38c (100f) close/under the "basing area" as I would when I had a basking bulb there?

Any input is greatly appreciated. Thanks!

 

[The_Four_Toed_Edward]

What species are we talking about and how big is your tortoise? How big is the space the tortoise is in?

Often this configuration (RHP + heat mat) is used for large tortoises and it is most efficient when used to heat a small space, a heated tortoise house. Is this the purpose you are thinking about?

 

[JoshyP]

What species are we talking about and how big is your tortoise? How big is the space the tortoise is in?

Often this configuration (RHP + heat mat) is used for large tortoises and it is most efficient when used to heat a small space, a heated tortoise house. Is this the purpose you are thinking about?

He's a Sulcata Tortoise weighing about 6kg.

As I'm in the UK, and we get cold winters, I don't like letting my sully go outside during this time, especially when I'm away at work. Because of this, I've dedicated the whole of a summer house to him, insulated and heated to maintain the temperatures he needs. During the summer he's got access to roam around the garden. This house is primarily used to keep him warm over the winter. I'm not sure of exact measurements, but before we moved here, there was someone living in it so it's pretty "spacious" (I'm aware Sulcata's need all the space they can get to roam around, etc, and he gets this, but just over the winter we move him into the summer house to keep him toasty!) We are planning to extend this summer house, but that will be in time for next winter.

Currently, whilst we were upgrading his house for the winter, we've got a room in our house completely dedicated to him (lamps, humidity, etc). With lamps I'm under the thought that there should be a dedicated basing area of around 38c (100f) and I'm wondering if this should be mimicked in his winter house using a RHP & heat mat as if I'm correct, he's too big to be using lamps anymore? Currently, I've got a piece of slate directly under his heat lamp that get's to 38c.

The winter house is heated all throughout, but by many sources, so the coldest part during the day is always 30c or above. The heat mat being on doesn't really change the temperature in the cooler end as there is a heat source closer that heats up that space quicker then the heat mat & RHP would as it's further away.

Essentially, I'm aware of how hard it is to give a Sulcata the space & heat they require in a colder climate like mine, so I've dedicated as much space as we can currently (until we expand the house) that's fully heated over the winter. As the space is "large" we've had to add heat sources all throughout to keep the temperatures up.

Does that make sense, or is there anything that I can explain further to help you to help me?

 

[Alex and the Redfoot]

RHP + heat mat combo is used for mild ambient heating (like deep in the burrow, where soil temperatures are higher), so you should not set it to 100F.

To create a true basking area you may need a cluster of heat lamps. I believe, @Markw84 does that for his giant tortoises. I hope he can chime in and tell more.

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

RHP + heat mat combo is used for mild ambient heating (like deep in the burrow, where soil temperatures are higher), so you should not set it to 100F.

To create a true basking area you may need a cluster of heat lamps. I believe, @Markw84 does that for his giant tortoises. I hope he can chime in and tell more.

I’m curious to hear more about using heat lamps to create a basking area for the bigger guys, a lot of younger sulcatas I’ve seen with room for growth, folks are often using heat lamps for heating and I notice they have pyramiding still in progress, that mainly appears to effect the vertebral scutes, the marginal scutes don’t often appear as effected, I assumed the running theme is the desiccating effect heat lamps have on larger tortoises, makes sense why the scutes closest to the lamps are usually the most severe?
Hopefully mark can weigh in, I’m curious if @Tom has any input too

 

[Alex and the Redfoot]

I’m curious to hear more about using heat lamps to create a basking area for the bigger guys, a lot of younger sulcatas I’ve seen with room for growth, folks are often using heat lamps for heating and I notice they have pyramiding still in progress, that mainly appears to effect the vertebral scutes, the marginal scutes don’t often appear as effected, I assumed the running theme is the desiccating effect heat lamps have on larger tortoises, makes sense why the scutes closest to the lamps are usually the most severe?
Hopefully mark can weigh in, I’m curious if @Tom has any input too

Here is one post from Mark with some details on large basking zones:

Stuart (Freddie) update

Good evening, everyone! Back in 2019, I re-homed a 10-year-old male Sulcata weighing about 5.4kg. It’s been a few years now, and I’m happy to share that Stuart (formerly known as Freddie) has made significant progress despite a few challenges along the way. Stuart now weighs 14kg, but his...

tortoiseforum.org

If you take a look at radiance charts of UVB or heat lamps you will notice that dependency between power level (or UV index) and distance is not linear. Thus at shorter distances to the bulb even a few inches of tortoise shell height will change exposure significantly. Another factor is carapace bones growth and ossification - Markw84 explained the mechanics elsewhere, but I can't find it steaight away.

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

Here is one post from Mark with some details on large basking zones:

Stuart (Freddie) update

Good evening, everyone! Back in 2019, I re-homed a 10-year-old male Sulcata weighing about 5.4kg. It’s been a few years now, and I’m happy to share that Stuart (formerly known as Freddie) has made significant progress despite a few challenges along the way. Stuart now weighs 14kg, but his...

tortoiseforum.org

If you take a look at radiance charts of UVB or heat lamps you will notice that dependency between power level (or UV index) and distance is not linear. Thus at shorter distances to the bulb even a few inches of tortoise shell height will change exposure significantly. Another factor is carapace bones growth and ossification - Markw84 explained the mechanics elsewhere, but I can't find it steaight away.

Thanks Alex! Will give it a read over

 

[Markw84]

The post Alex linked above is my explanation of how I deal with this. So I won't retype it here.

@JoshyP If you have the house set up as I outlined in that post, you can let your tortoise have access to the outdoor pen even in fairly cold weather. With a way to come and go into the house where it can heat up properly, as the tortoise gets larger, and with more thermal mass, your tortoise will go out and graze for an hour or two - then come back in to warm up. You need to watch to be sure it does not cool and slow down and then settle into a corner or under a bush when cold. You have to be sure it does come back into the house when it is slowing down. The issue is - it has to be able to heat up its core temperature to a good metabolic temperature (>30°C) daily and it should not ever get cooler than 26° overnight. Brief cold exposure while grazing will not then be a problem. I opt to let mine go out for more room to roam and graze even when it is 8°C and cloudy as opposed to staying locked up in their house for more than 2 days in a row.

If you stay vigilant and are in tune with how your tortoise acts, you can watch and ensure it is only out when active and grazing. If it has slowed down and "parked" in a spot for 10-20 minutes - move it indoors to heat back up. It should go back on its own! You can also frequently check its core body temperature when outside to ease your mind. Use a heat gun to measure the temperature at the base of the neck between leg and neck. You'll be surprised how long a large tortoise will maintain it's heat.

 

[Megatron's Mom]

I use a heat mat and heat panel set to 86F. Mine also does not have the built in thermostat. I just bought a thermostat and plug the mat and panel into it and it comes on and off as needed. If you want to use yours to go up even higher then set it to 98-100. But you will need some bright light like 6500K LED to let your tortoise know that is the basking spot. He will look for the sunny spot to bask.

 

[ryan57]

This is prime real estate around here recently. Both of the male sulcatas get quite warm here during the winter. They go outside even when it's cold, for a while, then come back in and get warm. They both get 2 45 minute soaks on a daily basis and eat like pigs. One is almost 70lbs at 3yrs 10mo and the other is 30lbs or so @ 2yrs 5mo.
I sandwiched the Kane mat between two pieces of hardibacker (non flammable) and put the sensor down the center channel of the mat. I don't care what the temp number is... I measure the tortoise with the laser.

Right now it is set to 98deg and the sensor is reading 97.

I just got huffed and puffed and grunted at but he is 82.7 degrees on his side and he's heated from below so I'd call it good. Measure your tortoise rather than worrying about the number.

 

[ryan57]

The post Alex linked above is my explanation of how I deal with this. So I won't retype it here.

@JoshyP If you have the house set up as I outlined in that post, you can let your tortoise have access to the outdoor pen even in fairly cold weather. With a way to come and go into the house where it can heat up properly, as the tortoise gets larger, and with more thermal mass, your tortoise will go out and graze for an hour or two - then come back in to warm up. You need to watch to be sure it does not cool and slow down and then settle into a corner or under a bush when cold. You have to be sure it does come back into the house when it is slowing down. The issue is - it has to be able to heat up its core temperature to a good metabolic temperature (>30°C) daily and it should not ever get cooler than 26° overnight. Brief cold exposure while grazing will not then be a problem. I opt to let mine go out for more room to roam and graze even when it is 8°C and cloudy as opposed to staying locked up in their house for more than 2 days in a row.

If you stay vigilant and are in tune with how your tortoise acts, you can watch and ensure it is only out when active and grazing. If it has slowed down and "parked" in a spot for 10-20 minutes - move it indoors to heat back up. It should go back on its own! You can also frequently check its core body temperature when outside to ease your mind. Use a heat gun to measure the temperature at the base of the neck between leg and neck. You'll be surprised how long a large tortoise will maintain it's heat.

You're absolutely right about them not caring if it's cold. Here in southern PA the grass is still green in January and they love eating from the yard. If it's below 40, they usually have their heated vests (Milwaukee M12) on under their jacket unless the sun is out. Stump (70lbs) is almost 4 and will go out for 1-2 hours. My rule is if I'm out with him, I don't wear gloves and only a hoodie. If I'm cold, he's cold. If my fingers are uncomfortable, his limbs are uncomfortable. Earlier this week one day was 47 and sunny and without his jacket or vest and his carapace was measuring 79 after 2 hours of walking.

Both of ours are in tune with the dryer vent so in the winter we run the dryer when they are out and sometimes they use it. These are smart animals.

The daily soaks bring them both up to about 92 degrees Fahrenheit as measured when they're getting out.

 

[JoshyP]

RHP + heat mat combo is used for mild ambient heating (like deep in the burrow, where soil temperatures are higher), so you should not set it to 100F.

To create a true basking area you may need a cluster of heat lamps. I believe, @Markw84 does that for his giant tortoises. I hope he can chime in and tell more.

Thanks for the reply and for sharing your information - much appreciated!

 

[JoshyP]

I’m curious to hear more about using heat lamps to create a basking area for the bigger guys, a lot of younger sulcatas I’ve seen with room for growth, folks are often using heat lamps for heating and I notice they have pyramiding still in progress, that mainly appears to effect the vertebral scutes, the marginal scutes don’t often appear as effected, I assumed the running theme is the desiccating effect heat lamps have on larger tortoises, makes sense why the scutes closest to the lamps are usually the most severe?
Hopefully mark can weigh in, I’m curious if @Tom has any input too

Same here. From what I've read, mainly on here, I thought that the issue with using heat lamps on larger torts is that it can burn their shells. Plus, it doesn't properly heat up their inside. I could be wrong, but that was always my understanding, hence the switch from bulbs to the panel & heat mat in his enclosure. Happy to be corrected if I've got it wrong. Just want the best for my tort. Thanks!

 

[JoshyP]

Here is one post from Mark with some details on large basking zones:

Stuart (Freddie) update

Good evening, everyone! Back in 2019, I re-homed a 10-year-old male Sulcata weighing about 5.4kg. It’s been a few years now, and I’m happy to share that Stuart (formerly known as Freddie) has made significant progress despite a few challenges along the way. Stuart now weighs 14kg, but his...

tortoiseforum.org

If you take a look at radiance charts of UVB or heat lamps you will notice that dependency between power level (or UV index) and distance is not linear. Thus at shorter distances to the bulb even a few inches of tortoise shell height will change exposure significantly. Another factor is carapace bones growth and ossification - Markw84 explained the mechanics elsewhere, but I can't find it steaight away.

Thanks for sharing Mark's post. I'll give that a read shortly. Thanks too for the reply and sharing - much appreciated!

 

[JoshyP]

The post Alex linked above is my explanation of how I deal with this. So I won't retype it here.

@JoshyP If you have the house set up as I outlined in that post, you can let your tortoise have access to the outdoor pen even in fairly cold weather. With a way to come and go into the house where it can heat up properly, as the tortoise gets larger, and with more thermal mass, your tortoise will go out and graze for an hour or two - then come back in to warm up. You need to watch to be sure it does not cool and slow down and then settle into a corner or under a bush when cold. You have to be sure it does come back into the house when it is slowing down. The issue is - it has to be able to heat up its core temperature to a good metabolic temperature (>30°C) daily and it should not ever get cooler than 26° overnight. Brief cold exposure while grazing will not then be a problem. I opt to let mine go out for more room to roam and graze even when it is 8°C and cloudy as opposed to staying locked up in their house for more than 2 days in a row.

If you stay vigilant and are in tune with how your tortoise acts, you can watch and ensure it is only out when active and grazing. If it has slowed down and "parked" in a spot for 10-20 minutes - move it indoors to heat back up. It should go back on its own! You can also frequently check its core body temperature when outside to ease your mind. Use a heat gun to measure the temperature at the base of the neck between leg and neck. You'll be surprised how long a large tortoise will maintain it's heat.

The only reason as to why I hadn't planned to give my tort access to the garden with the weather being cold is because most days I'm at work and would be petrified that he would just settle down outside and not come back in. Perhaps I'll start doing this with him once I get home from work and on the weekends until he's going back inside by himself.

Indoors the ambient temperature for his enclosure is 30c throughout the day, and then 27c overnight. I'll double check the floor temperatures once we add more substrate, as I'm aware a lot of heat can be loss through here, but I doubt it will be a problem as it hasn't been one before.

As for your post that Alex shared, I was not aware that using 3 basking bulbs together mitigates the issue with using just one on a larger tortoise. My understanding was that the bigger they get, the worse these are for them as it burns the outside of their shells, and doesn't heat their insides up "properly". I guess that's wrong then?

Before I forget, thanks for all of your advice, and taking the time to respond/share - much appreciated.

 

[JoshyP]

I use a heat mat and heat panel set to 86F. Mine also does not have the built in thermostat. I just bought a thermostat and plug the mat and panel into it and it comes on and off as needed. If you want to use yours to go up even higher then set it to 98-100. But you will need some bright light like 6500K LED to let your tortoise know that is the basking spot. He will look for the sunny spot to bask.

Thanks for sharing. I'll start off with 30c on the thermostat, see how that heats him up and then adjust accordingly from there. As for the ambient lighting, he's got some in his enclosure already which have worked great. A bit whiter and brighter then I expected, but if that's what he needs then so be it. Thanks again for sharing.

 

[JoshyP]

This is prime real estate around here recently. Both of the male sulcatas get quite warm here during the winter. They go outside even when it's cold, for a while, then come back in and get warm. They both get 2 45 minute soaks on a daily basis and eat like pigs. One is almost 70lbs at 3yrs 10mo and the other is 30lbs or so @ 2yrs 5mo.
I sandwiched the Kane mat between two pieces of hardibacker (non flammable) and put the sensor down the center channel of the mat. I don't care what the temp number is... I measure the tortoise with the laser.

Right now it is set to 98deg and the sensor is reading 97.

I just got huffed and puffed and grunted at but he is 82.7 degrees on his side and he's heated from below so I'd call it good. Measure your tortoise rather than worrying about the number.

You're absolutely right about them not caring if it's cold. Here in southern PA the grass is still green in January and they love eating from the yard. If it's below 40, they usually have their heated vests (Milwaukee M12) on under their jacket unless the sun is out. Stump (70lbs) is almost 4 and will go out for 1-2 hours. My rule is if I'm out with him, I don't wear gloves and only a hoodie. If I'm cold, he's cold. If my fingers are uncomfortable, his limbs are uncomfortable. Earlier this week one day was 47 and sunny and without his jacket or vest and his carapace was measuring 79 after 2 hours of walking.

Both of ours are in tune with the dryer vent so in the winter we run the dryer when they are out and sometimes they use it. These are smart animals.

The daily soaks bring them both up to about 92 degrees Fahrenheit as measured when they're getting out.

Wow, they are some pretty big boys. Thanks for sharing too - much appreciated. I'd planned to set it to whatever and then adjust accordingly based on the temperature of my tort, but also didn't want to hurt him and if somebody has already found out the "ideal" temperature setting, then I'd rather get it right from day one, but I'm sure a few days of messing this around won't hurt. Especially when his enclosure never drops below 30c during the day and then 27c overnight or at least I hope it won't.

Good idea too about going outside with them. It hadn't even crossed my mind to do that. Agree also that these are pretty smart animals, but they most definitely do have their dumb moments! Thanks for the idea and again for the advice.

 

[EppsDynasty]

Here is something to look at .........if you are doing it differently than this, you are doing it wrong. There are so many people that just don't understand physics and give terrible info, including people that have had tortoises for decades ..... so what, your still doing it wrong. Just having tortoises for 40 years doesn't make you immune from doing things completely wrong.

Thermostats KILL tortoises period. Thermostats control the power given to the mat by giving 0% energy then 100% ...... nothing in between. So burning your tortoise is inevitable. A Rheostat controls how much energy you give to the mat .... 25%, 40%, 75% ......whatever you set the rheostat to. This is the proper way to provide heat because it is safe. ANYONE using thermostats is just playing with the life of their tort and the tort will suffer.

 

[JoshyP]

Here is something to look at .........if you are doing it differently than this, you are doing it wrong. There are so many people that just don't understand physics and give terrible info, including people that have had tortoises for decades ..... so what, your still doing it wrong. Just having tortoises for 40 years doesn't make you immune from doing things completely wrong.

Thermostats KILL tortoises period. Thermostats control the power given to the mat by giving 0% energy then 100% ...... nothing in between. So burning your tortoise is inevitable. A Rheostat controls how much energy you give to the mat .... 25%, 40%, 75% ......whatever you set the rheostat to. This is the proper way to provide heat because it is safe. ANYONE using thermostats is just playing with the life of their tort and the tort will suffer.

Thanks for sharing those videos, they were very informative and helpful. Definitely agree as well that everyone has something to learn!

As for thermostats, the ones I have allows you to switch between different power distribution methods, for example, on/off, pulse and then also rheostat. I was planning to use rheostat as have a basking area that goes on and off throughout the day, doesn't make sense to me. Regardless, thanks for your insight and for sharing - much appreciated.

 

[jaizei]

Here is something to look at .........if you are doing it differently than this, you are doing it wrong. There are so many people that just don't understand physics and give terrible info, including people that have had tortoises for decades ..... so what, your still doing it wrong. Just having tortoises for 40 years doesn't make you immune from doing things completely wrong.

Thermostats KILL tortoises period. Thermostats control the power given to the mat by giving 0% energy then 100% ...... nothing in between. So burning your tortoise is inevitable. A Rheostat controls how much energy you give to the mat .... 25%, 40%, 75% ......whatever you set the rheostat to. This is the proper way to provide heat because it is safe. ANYONE using thermostats is just playing with the life of their tort and the tort will suffer.

Around 8:30 you're comparing the wattages, suggesting that the lower wattage isn't enough compared to the 115w of the stanfield, why does that matter when you're running it through the rheostat? The mat isn't working at 115w after that point.

How are you determining the setting for the rheostats; how are you measuring and maintaining the temperature of the enclosures? If tonight is 20* warmer or colder than last night, how are you ensuring that the enclosures stay in the correct temperature range? Or if there a steep temperature drop during the night.

Thermostats are essential because they control the heating equipment in response to the temperature. Ambient heating should always go through a thermostat, rheostats are good for bottom heat/mats since they typically heat above ambient. And if you're controlling the ambient with a thermostat, you're indirectly controlling the mat as well.