Hello! I'm new here and could use some advice on feeding

[RachaelnRoxy]

Okay, I've read a LOT in the last 24 hours but one thing I'm still confused about is food. Not so much "what" to fuel my Jet with but "how much" and "how often." She wants to eat constantly. Today I put her in my yard she walked and ate for an hour. I'm in Charlotte, NC and its at least 90 degrees out today, feels like 100. So we came inside. But she didn't want to stop eating! The girl that gave her to me said feed her every other day, but all the other info she gave me was WRONG so I can't trust it. If I put her in the grass for an hour and all she does is eat, should I feed her more that day? HELP. I'm clueless and I'm trying so hard to do right by my girl.

 

[lendube]

Hi and welcome. I'm new too so I'll leave the answering to the ones that know. Good luck. You're a good person to want to do right by her!

 

[dmmj]

If she eats (grazes ) for an hour, I would not feed her more. They eat, and eat, and, and then eat some more.

 

[Yvonne G]

No one tells the wild tortoise when to stop eating. If your tortoise is outside and is grazing freely, I would let it be. When it is ready to stop, or when it gets hot, it will stop grazing and seek out the shade.

 

[Saleama]

I went to home depot and bought some 2 x 12 boards cut into five, 6 foot sections. I used them to build a square with the fifth board over one end to make a shade area. They screw together easily. You can also put them on hinges rotating in and out so you can fold the unit up to store it but you have to construct a removable hood to do it this way. I covered the rest in chicken wire. The whole thing sits in the grass to allow access for the tort. I can move it around as needed. I let mine graze as long as they want. They will show you when they are ready to come inside by digging in and going to sleep. If you let them graze you shouldn't need to feed them more. I always put some greens and flowers (Hybiscus and Nasturtian) I grow for them in the middle of the play pen to encourage more exploration. The bonus to this is, you will not need inside UVB if you let them out a few times a week! If you want to leave them out for a long period make sure the shady area is never fully exposed to total sunlight and that you put a water dish in there for them to use.

 

[Grandpa Turtle 144]

Hello Rachaeln welcome to the TFO from AZ . Torts walk around and feed off an on all day mostly in the morning and in the late evening when it's cooler . But you dowhat you want .


Sent from my iPhone using TortForum

 

[pam]

Welcome

 

[Drakkina]

Welcome you have come to the right place for advice lol, I feed mine once to twice a day, she use to graze on the grass but most of it dried up so I am going to go out and buy timothy hay to put in one corner of her enclosure for her to graze on with her flowers and veggies.

 

[Tank'sMom]

Mine walks around eating all day. Starts at 7am, takes a break around 2 or 3, eats some more, then calls it a day around 5-6pm.
I don't think they can ever do too much grazing. Just make sure the yard/grass is chemical free.
I also give him treats a couple times a week...

Grazing is the best diet!

 

[rearlpettway]

Here is one picture of a wild Sulcata. Notice that there is very little if any green grass or weeds. This is just one example, I have many more if you would like to see them.



Sent from Rodney Earl Pettway's iPad using TortForum

 

[RachaelnRoxy]

I'm not really sure how Jet and I got by without you guys!!! THANKS SOOOOO MUCH!!!! Jet seemed to go after the dead grass in my yard. My house is on a 1/3 of an acre, I'm hoping one day I won't have to cut my grass and weeds so often. But Jet is only about the size of a measuring cup, so I won't leave her out by herself yet. My back yard backs up to a greenway and we have deer, racoons, bunnies, cats, large birds, etc. I'm not even sure what her natural predators would be now that I think about it. I once had a turtle named speedy, I had him outside and looked away for just a second and he was gone. I will NOT make that mistake again. So Jet is under serious servailence while outside. I saw a food list, by Tom I believe, but I don't remember seeing flowers on there. What other flowers can she have? Do you grow them yourselves to make sure there are no pesticides or fertilizers? Can I just buy organic flowers? I have her in a 150 gallon tank right now. But we go outside every day (weather permitting.) I'm curious what to do with her when she outgrows her inclosure. I know she can be outside when the weather is nice but what do you guys do with them in the winter? Pics of your solutions would help me plan for her big move one day, as she will have to be inside during the cold months. Sorry for all the questions, I'm new to this, and I just want to make sure I'm doing things right. I can't wait until she gets BIG!!! She is SO social! Thanks again! You guys are awesome!!!

 

[Tank'sMom]

Dandelions, hibiscus, roses, cactus flowers and pads. They LOVE hibiscus.
Where I live the weather is great for keeping them out all year round. We have very few really cold days. So if you live up north, someone else can help you there...

 

[RachaelnRoxy]

Tank is beautiful! Is he a sulcata? Whats with the color variations? Are they all different? Tank has light and dark, Jet is pretty much the same color all over. Do they change color as they get bigger?

 

[Tank'sMom]

Most are darker. Tank is very light with dark lines. I don't see many like him. Most are darker.
But yes, they all come out different. My babies are the same right now, but I don't know if they'll stay that way.
Of course, my profile pic is after a bath. Usually he looks more like this...

Lol

 

[Tom]

The advice to feed small amounts and skip days comes from the old incorrect assumption that fast growth was the cause of pyramiding. Sulcata babies first started becoming readily available in the early 90's. Me and everyone else involved with them back then had a hard time growing them up without horrible pyramiding. When someone did occasionally manage to grow a relatively smooth one, no one really knew why because we all seemed to be doing the same things. Back then we read all the books we could find and talked to all the experts and the thinking of the day was that it is hot and dry in Sub-Saharan Africa and there is nothing but dead dry grass and weeds like in the pic posted by Rodney above. So this is how we housed them. Green iguanas were very popular back then too and many of us learned "proper" herbivore diets from all the iguana books and iguana "experts". Those early herbivore diets mainly consisted of grocery store greens and since it was working for iguanas, we all thought it would work well for our new baby tortoises too. The tortoises sure seemed to like it. Well hot and dry, coupled with grocery store greens resulted in lots of pyramided tortoises. For many years people tried to solve this puzzle and largely failed. One of the incorrect assumptions that was made was that the pyramiding was due to too much protein, or too much food, or too rich high quality food. Lots of assumptions were made about their lives in the wild and seemingly logical theories were promoted as fact. The problem was that armed with these new "facts" no one could raise a smooth one, unless you lived in the Deep South, but not a lot of people there kept sulcatas because it was assumed (again incorrectly) that they needed hot dry conditions and the humidity of the south would make them sick.

SOOOooooooo I made several attempts at feeding low quantity, low nutrition, high fiber foods in an attempt to finally raise a smooth baby sulcata. The result? Stunted, hungry (more like ravenous), pyramided tortoises. They pyramided just as much, only they grew much slower. To say that I was frustrated would be a gross understatement. I was despondent, angry, and frustrated beyond belief. It took me a while to realize the people dispensing this advice didn't have smooth sulcatas either. I began eliminating variables and trying to figure this mystery out. I failed for many years. I had pretty much mentally checked out of tortoise keeping and I was never getting another baby until somebody figured out why they grow perfectly smooth in the wild, but totally pyramided in captivity. Was it calcium? No. Soaking? No. Sunshine/UV? No. Diet? BIG NO. Heat? No. Substrate? No. All of the above are related and important factors in having a HEALTHY tortoises, but I could find no correlation with pyramiding.

In short, to answer the original question, feed your tortoise every day and let him/her graze all day long, as they would in the wild.

About the wild: To put all this in perspective and tie up all the loose ends, it took me nearly two decades to put all the puzzle pieces together. Here are some puzzle pieces:
1. All the books and experts talk about the 8-9 month hot dry season over there. What about the other 3-4 months? Everyone seems to ignore the "other" 3-4 months a year. Guess what? RAINY SEASON! It is hot, rainy, very humid, marshy in some places and there are frequent puddles and fresh green growing food every where you look. Take a wild guess during which of the two seasons over there wild sulcata babies hatch... Further, guess where the sulcatas are during that dry season. Hint: Its not above ground walking around in the hot dry sun! Sulcatas spend 95-98% of their lives underground in the wild. I use this analogy: There are earthworms living in the Sahel region. How long do you think and earthworm would survive in a tank with rabbit pellets as a substrate and a hot bulb? The same thing happens to the innards of a baby tortoise kept in those conditions.
2. This tidbit was given to me by Tomas Diagne of the African Chelonian Institute in 2011: See that pic from the wild above where everything dead and dried out? Looks like there is not much to eat, right? Apparently sulcatas drag vegetation underground into their burrows toward the end of the rainy season. Lots of it. The humidity benefits of this should be obvious, but it also gives them something to eat for the entire dry season. Apparently there is not a season of aestivation where sulcatas are inactive and not eating because of the hot dry conditions. They are very active, eating daily and going about their business, in the humid warm underground burrows away from prying human eyes.
3. I've been keeping reptiles for many years. I've have been using humid hid boxes for most of that time to help a wide variety of species of lizards and snakes shed properly in my dry climate. It was Richard and Jerry Fife in their "Leopard Tortoise" book that introduced me to this concept for African tortoises that supposedly come from "dry" climates. Don't know why it never occurred to me, but it didn't. While Richard planted the seed, I decided to humidify the entire enclosure (vs. just a small humid box) out of frustration during my attempt at stopping Daisy's pre-existing pyramiding. This is where I learned the vast difference between preventing pyramiding and stopping pyramiding already in progress. HUGE difference.
4. Terry K introduced me to the concept of shell spraying. He and many others had been using this technique to grow smooth redfoot tortoises for a long time. It was Terry that suggested I try it on African tortoises. It worked.
5. I don't know where the concept of daily soaks came to me from. I started doing this in 2008, before I ever heard of TFO, with my Daisy tortoise. I don't remember where I got the idea. I might have figured this one out on my own, but many others do and did it back then too. None other than Bill Zovickian says in his radiata care sheet the he "religiously" soaks his babies every day for their first four year. I had never heard of Bill back then though... Many here on TFO advocate daily soaks. There is no way to calculate how many babies have been saved and/or kept healthier from this practice.

Anyhow, hope that gives a little insight into where some of this stuff comes from. Please feel free to ask for more clarification.

 

[Tank'sMom]

Awesome info Tom!

 

[Gus]

Well written Tom and I strongly agree with you

 

[rocillo.a]

The advice to feed small amounts and skip days comes from the old incorrect assumption that fast growth was the cause of pyramiding. Sulcata babies first started becoming readily available in the early 90's. Me and everyone else involved with them back then had a hard time growing them up without horrible pyramiding. When someone did occasionally manage to grow a relatively smooth one, no one really knew why because we all seemed to be doing the same things. Back then we read all the books we could find and talked to all the experts and the thinking of the day was that it is hot and dry in Sub-Saharan Africa and there is nothing but dead dry grass and weeds like in the pic posted by Rodney above. So this is how we housed them. Green iguanas were very popular back then too and many of us learned "proper" herbivore diets from all the iguana books and iguana "experts". Those early herbivore diets mainly consisted of grocery store greens and since it was working for iguanas, we all thought it would work well for our new baby tortoises too. The tortoises sure seemed to like it. Well hot and dry, coupled with grocery store greens resulted in lots of pyramided tortoises. For many years people tried to solve this puzzle and largely failed. One of the incorrect assumptions that was made was that the pyramiding was due to too much protein, or too much food, or too rich high quality food. Lots of assumptions were made about their lives in the wild and seemingly logical theories were promoted as fact. The problem was that armed with these new "facts" no one could raise a smooth one, unless you lived in the Deep South, but not a lot of people there kept sulcatas because it was assumed (again incorrectly) that they needed hot dry conditions and the humidity of the south would make them sick.

SOOOooooooo I made several attempts at feeding low quantity, low nutrition, high fiber foods in an attempt to finally raise a smooth baby sulcata. The result? Stunted, hungry (more like ravenous), pyramided tortoises. They pyramided just as much, only they grew much slower. To say that I was frustrated would be a gross understatement. I was despondent, angry, and frustrated beyond belief. It took me a while to realize the people dispensing this advice didn't have smooth sulcatas either. I began eliminating variables and trying to figure this mystery out. I failed for many years. I had pretty much mentally checked out of tortoise keeping and I was never getting another baby until somebody figured out why they grow perfectly smooth in the wild, but totally pyramided in captivity. Was it calcium? No. Soaking? No. Sunshine/UV? No. Diet? BIG NO. Heat? No. Substrate? No. All of the above are related and important factors in having a HEALTHY tortoises, but I could find no correlation with pyramiding.

In short, to answer the original question, feed your tortoise every day and let him/her graze all day long, as they would in the wild.

About the wild: To put all this in perspective and tie up all the loose ends, it took me nearly two decades to put all the puzzle pieces together. Here are some puzzle pieces:
1. All the books and experts talk about the 8-9 month hot dry season over there. What about the other 3-4 months? Everyone seems to ignore the "other" 3-4 months a year. Guess what? RAINY SEASON! It is hot, rainy, very humid, marshy in some places and there are frequent puddles and fresh green growing food every where you look. Take a wild guess during which of the two seasons over there wild sulcata babies hatch... Further, guess where the sulcatas are during that dry season. Hint: Its not above ground walking around in the hot dry sun! Sulcatas spend 95-98% of their lives underground in the wild. I use this analogy: There are earthworms living in the Sahel region. How long do you think and earthworm would survive in a tank with rabbit pellets as a substrate and a hot bulb? The same thing happens to the innards of a baby tortoise kept in those conditions.
2. This tidbit was given to me by Tomas Diagne of the African Chelonian Institute in 2011: See that pic from the wild above where everything dead and dried out? Looks like there is not much to eat, right? Apparently sulcatas drag vegetation underground into their burrows toward the end of the rainy season. Lots of it. The humidity benefits of this should be obvious, but it also gives them something to eat for the entire dry season. Apparently there is not a season of aestivation where sulcatas are inactive and not eating because of the hot dry conditions. They are very active, eating daily and going about their business, in the humid warm underground burrows away from prying human eyes.
3. I've been keeping reptiles for many years. I've have been using humid hid boxes for most of that time to help a wide variety of species of lizards and snakes shed properly in my dry climate. It was Richard and Jerry Fife in their "Leopard Tortoise" book that introduced me to this concept for African tortoises that supposedly come from "dry" climates. Don't know why it never occurred to me, but it didn't. While Richard planted the seed, I decided to humidify the entire enclosure (vs. just a small humid box) out of frustration during my attempt at stopping Daisy's pre-existing pyramiding. This is where I learned the vast difference between preventing pyramiding and stopping pyramiding already in progress. HUGE difference.
4. Terry K introduced me to the concept of shell spraying. He and many others had been using this technique to grow smooth redfoot tortoises for a long time. It was Terry that suggested I try it on African tortoises. It worked.
5. I don't know where the concept of daily soaks came to me from. I started doing this in 2008, before I ever heard of TFO, with my Daisy tortoise. I don't remember where I got the idea. I might have figured this one out on my own, but many others do and did it back then too. None other than Bill Zovickian says in his radiata care sheet the he "religiously" soaks his babies every day for their first four year. I had never heard of Bill back then though... Many here on TFO advocate daily soaks. There is no way to calculate how many babies have been saved and/or kept healthier from this practice.

Anyhow, hope that gives a little insight into where some of this stuff comes from. Please feel free to ask for more clarification.

You are such an awesome, tortoise genius guy.
I idolize you.

 

[Clawem]

I am also thankful for all of Tom's info. Until a few months ago I was keeping mine as dry as I could hoping to avoid pyramiding I even used a dehumidifier thinking I was doing the right thing. Now they are much healthier and hopfully I will not add to the pyramiding they already have. Thanks again Tom for all your info.

 

[DeanS]

When feeding...I can't stress enough to stay away from store bought greens...except as an occasional treat! Find a good feed store and buy a 25# bag of Mazuri Tortoise Chow (not LS)...this can be fed dry or soaked (when soaked it should be the same consistency of old fashioned oatmeal)! When in doubt, there's no harm in letting 'em fill up in the yard...that's the BIGGEST favor you can do for them!

Incidentally, those wild sulcata shots are from Tomas Diagne...and Tom posted them some time back...here's the link!

http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/wild-sulcata-pics.67774/