Help and advice - Inherited 49 year old tort

[LMT_83]

Hi there

We're in the UK and looking on forums for some advice. We've had a look at a lot of online resource but find so much of the info conflicting.

My partners Dad had to move from a house to a flat early this year so asked us to have his tortoise. From what we understand she's female and approx 49/50 years old. His Dad has had her since he was a young boy. She's never had any heat lamps or specialist tables and has always roamed free in the garden from very young. There were two of them but the male was stolen when they were very juvenile. We're not 100% sure on the breed but we think possibly she's a 'Common Tortoise' (Testudo graeca). I've loaded a couple of photo's if it helps.

The issue we're having now is that we're not 100% on how we should be hibernating her. His Dad has just said he used to put her in a box with some straw and put her in the garage 'around the end of October'. We've seen quite a few suggestions online about soil and double boxing etc but he said he's never done that.

At the moment we put her out during the day if there's sun/warm enough around lunchtime. And we bring her in early evening in her hutch in the back of our kitchen. The last week or so she's pretty much just slept all day - especially on colder days when we don't put her out. When we do put her out she's very very slow. Average temp where we are is between 6-10 degrees (celsius) daily but we are getting some October sun which is bringing the temp up in afternoons.

Part of us worries we're fussing too much and if she's survived nearly this long as she has she will be ok, but we'll be really upset if we do something wrong that could put her in danger.

PS - when I posted her photos on a UK forum we didn't really get much response in the way of advice except one person said that her shell looks like she's not properly nourished. She's had a lifelong diet of tomato and lettuce (i know before anyone says how bad that is). We're bought pellets, the dried week mix, calcium powder. She won't touch any of it (not even tomatoes if we dare to put the powder on them!). She does graze on clovers in the garden but doesn't touch the dandilions or other weeds. I think it's safe to say she's a little set in her ways.

 

[JoesMum]

Hello and welcome to another Brit with an old timer. Joe was part of our lives since 1970 and, sadly, had to be put to sleep last year due to a tumour.

I am in Kent - further east than you, but just as far south

Your old girl looks wonderful and fully grown. An Ibera Greek I think. The shell isn't perfectly smooth but that won't change as your tort isn't growing. She is quite likely older than 49 as all torts were wild caught imports back then. We never knew Joe's age and the best we could say was probably over 50 at the time he died.

Now to get on to your concerns.

Firstly, I will direct you to the thread I wrote about outdoor accommodation in the UK climate as it covers how I changed my practice for Joe.
https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/outdoor-accommodation-in-a-colder-uk-climate.140866/

Next you need to weigh and measure your tort before you considering hibernation so that you know whether she is a healthy weight

Here is how to measure her (do it in cm) - it is easiest when your tort is cold
http://www.tlady.clara.net/measure.htm

Weigh her in grammes. Use the stranding method. Put a can on a set of digital scales and zero them. Then balance your tort on the can so she can't walk off!

Then use the Jackson ratio calculator to see how she is doing
https://www.tortoise-protection-group.org.uk/site/171.asp

The UK weather has been a bit of a nightmare for tortoise keepers in the last couple of weeks. Nights have been very cool and days have been far too warm to hibernate. To hibernate successfully, your tort needs it below 10C day and night and above freezing, ideally around 5C. You either need to keep tour tort warm enough overnight and then jump start her with a basking lamp by day, or you need a dedicated fridge. We gave up with box hibernation as we couldn't guarantee the temperatures here in Kent.

I will be back with more in another post, but I just wanted you to know I had seen you!

 

[JoesMum]

Hello and welcome to another Brit with an old timer. Joe was part of our lives since 1970 and, sadly, had to be put to sleep last year due to a tumour.

I am in Kent - further east than you, but just as far south

Your old girl looks wonderful and fully grown. An Ibera Greek I think. The shell isn't perfectly smooth but that won't change as your tort isn't growing. She is quite likely older than 49 as all torts were wild caught imports back then. We never knew Joe's age and the best we could say was probably over 50 at the time he died.

Now to get on to your concerns.

Firstly, I will direct you to the thread I wrote about outdoor accommodation in the UK climate as it covers how I changed my practice for Joe.
https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/outdoor-accommodation-in-a-colder-uk-climate.140866/

Next you need to weigh and measure your tort before you considering hibernation so that you know whether she is a healthy weight

Here is how to measure her (do it in cm) - it is easiest when your tort is cold
http://www.tlady.clara.net/measure.htm

Weigh her in grammes. Use the stranding method. Put a can on a set of digital scales and zero them. Then balance your tort on the can so she can't walk off!

Then use the Jackson ratio calculator to see how she is doing
https://www.tortoise-protection-group.org.uk/site/171.asp

The UK weather has been a bit of a nightmare for tortoise keepers in the last couple of weeks. Nights have been very cool and days have been far too warm to hibernate. To hibernate successfully, your tort needs it below 10C day and night and above freezing, ideally around 5C. You either need to keep tour tort warm enough overnight and then jump start her with a basking lamp by day, or you need a dedicated fridge. We gave up with box hibernation as we couldn't guarantee the temperatures here in Kent.

I will be back with more in another post, but I just wanted you to know I had seen you!

Hi there

We're in the UK and looking on forums for some advice. We've had a look at a lot of online resource but find so much of the info conflicting.

My partners Dad had to move from a house to a flat early this year so asked us to have his tortoise. From what we understand she's female and approx 49/50 years old. His Dad has had her since he was a young boy. She's never had any heat lamps or specialist tables and has always roamed free in the garden from very young. There were two of them but the male was stolen when they were very juvenile. We're not 100% sure on the breed but we think possibly she's a 'Common Tortoise' (Testudo graeca). I've loaded a couple of photo's if it helps.

Testudo graeca graeca is a Greek tortoise sometimes known as a Mediterranean Spur Thighed Tort. I leant toward Testido graeca ibera for her as she doesn't have the pale patch on her head that Joe did, but she does have a very pointy nose, so you are probably correct. It doesn't matter though as the care of all Greeks is the same. She is old, you can see that from her shell and that isn't a sign of a current care problem, it is decades of wear and tear.

The issue we're having now is that we're not 100% on how we should be hibernating her. His Dad has just said he used to put her in a box with some straw and put her in the garage 'around the end of October'. We've seen quite a few suggestions online about soil and double boxing etc but he said he's never done that.

Hibernation occurs at temperatures below 10C. Ideally steady around 5C and never below freezing. It is near impossible to achieve this in a single box as the temperatures vary too much and the tortoise can move to the outer edges and be affected if the garage temperature drops below freezing.

We double boxed Joe for years. We had a massive outer box bought from a removal company which was stuffed hard with hay, strwaw and/or shredded paper packed quite hard. The inner box was from an iron (Joe was quite big) and stuffed with shredded paper. We had a wireless indoor/outdoor thermometer with a min/max feature that we bought for about £10 from Amazon; the outdoor sensor went in the box with Joe and so I could keep an eye on how the temperature was in the box with him. The outer box kept temperatures remarkably stable, but a prolonged warm week in December with temperatures in the high teens by day a few years ago forced me to switch to fridge hibernation. Climate change means our winters just aren't as steadily cold as they used to be.

At the moment we put her out during the day if there's sun/warm enough around lunchtime. And we bring her in early evening in her hutch in the back of our kitchen. The last week or so she's pretty much just slept all day - especially on colder days when we don't put her out. When we do put her out she's very very slow. Average temp where we are is between 6-10 degrees (celsius) daily but we are getting some October sun which is bringing the temp up in afternoons.

You are doing the right thing in bringing her in for the night, but I would provide a basking lamp to get her going in the mornings and be soaking her for a good 30 minutes every morning too.

On sunny days, the temperatures at tortoise level in sunny sheltered spots in your garden will far exceed those advertised on the weather forecast... And in the south of England it's been in the low teens as a high. Joe was an absolute nightmare indoors unless he was stone cold, so he got turfed out regardless and my thread I linked to earlier shows how I helped him to cope with our climate.

She cannot eat or digest food properly unless she is given the opportunity to warm up thoroughly. This will take 2-3 hours for a big tortoise under a basking lamp.

Part of us worries we're fussing too much and if she's survived nearly this long as she has she will be ok, but we'll be really upset if we do something wrong that could put her in danger.

PS - when I posted her photos on a UK forum we didn't really get much response in the way of advice except one person said that her shell looks like she's not properly nourished. She's had a lifelong diet of tomato and lettuce (i know before anyone says how bad that is). We're bought pellets, the dried week mix, calcium powder. She won't touch any of it (not even tomatoes if we dare to put the powder on them!). She does graze on clovers in the garden but doesn't touch the dandilions or other weeds. I think it's safe to say she's a little set in her ways.

I am guessing I know which forum that was and I don't have a high opinion of it. I was a member there myself, but witnessed far too much bullying of inexperienced newbies on there with the mods being some of the worst. I found a supportive home on TFO and stayed here, making friends around the world. Welcome

There is a lot to learn, I learned a lot when I joined and continue to learn, and to pass on what I know.

Your tort's diet should be weedy and leafy greens. These garden torts eat more garden than you are aware and if they're out grazing and they're not losing weight then don't worry too much about what exactly they're eating. I supplemented Joe's grazing every day with romaine or little gem lettuce, dandelions I picked and other greens that I found, but the majority of his diet was garden ... which is handy if you go away a couple of days as you don't need to worry.

Greeks can't digest sugars properly, they cause digestive and kidney problems, so tomato, fruit, peppers and carrot should only be fed very sparingly and very occasionally if at all.

Your tort isn't growing and is unlikely to need calcium supplements. Indeed it is possible to overdo this and cause bladder stones. I never used calcium powder, but did leave a cuttlebone (bird aisle of any pet shop) out; Joe largely ignored it after he stopped growing. If you choose to use calcium powder then you need a very tiny pinch sprinkled very sparsely on food three days a week... no more! They will refuse food if they detect it!

Do use The Tortoise Table Plant Database as a handy look up for what you can pick from the garden or from your supermarket to feed. Don't panic about plants that aren't suitable to feed that are growing in your garden. I had three types of plant in my garden: edible, trampled and big enough for Joe to be forced to walk round them. He decided what he liked (and I still haven't forgiven him for eating my Sedum spectibile to the ground)
https://www.thetortoisetable.org.uk

When the weeds aren't plentiful, I did supplement with pellets. Joe was dreadfully picky, but he would eat Komodo pellets well softened in water. Mazuri is very popular in the US and can be bought from the Shelled Warriors online shop (I have a higher opinion of the shop than the forum); I never tried Joe on Mazuri
https://www.shelledwarriorsshop.co.uk/mazuri-leaf-eater-200g-7672-p.asp

 

[LMT_83]

Hello thank you so much for your reply and I'm so sorry to hear about Joe I have to admit it was a bit non-plussed about getting her as I thought 'it's just a tortoise' but only a few months with her and we're all completely besotted with her. I never realised they had such funny little personalities.

Thank you for the link to your thread - already incredibly helpful!! I feel a bit more assured now It's still incredibly warm here when the sun is at it's highest and we're very lucky that our garden is a little sun trap. When we're home at weekends with her we watch her move around with the sun - we noticed less in the summer as it doesn't move around the garden so quickly but its quite funny checking on her now to see how quickly she's moved from spot to spot.

We're going to buy a basking lamp for her I think it's definitely too cold here now inside even, especially in the morning. We're soaking her once a week but having looked through a number of threads we will try and increase it.

Thank you for the tip on soaking the pellets I hadn't though of that! Did you use to stop feeding at any point ahead of hibernation.

Thank you once again for the time you've taken with your reply.... I really do appreciate it x

 

[JoesMum]

They won't ever eat dry pellets Easy mistake to make though!

Soaking is most successful first thing in the morning when your tort is cooler. I did it in a washing up bowl or the (carefully cleaned to get rid of soap) kitchen sink. Except on very hot summer days, I didn't soak Joe most of the year. Only in the spring and autumn when he was getting going and winding down.

I found Joe would self starve for hibernation. I found myself needing to put less and less food out as a supplement until eventually he stopped eating. The soaking helps with poop generation, so he would also stop pooping as there was less food in his gut

I am happy to answer questions. They are best placed o thhe forum, but I don't always see the notifications. Send me a message if I appear to have ignored you!

 

[EllieMay]

Welcome and congratulations on your new Tort Life!!! [emoji16]

 

[LMT_83]

I am happy to answer questions. They are best placed o thhe forum, but I don't always see the notifications. Send me a message if I appear to have ignored you!

Thank you so much, sounds a bit daft but I feel much more at ease now! Especially after the helpful reading. I’ll switch to giving her a little soak in the mornings.

 

[katieandiggy]

Gorgeous old tortoise! You will grow to adore her, we’ve had ours for 6 months and we are all besotted.
Great advice from Joesmum, she knows best how to look after an older Greek.

 

[Pastel Tortie]

Welcome to the forum! @JoesMum gives wonderful advice, and you're fortunate to have her in the UK for specific local guidance and support.

 

[Yvonne G]

Testudo graeca graeca is a Greek tortoise sometimes known as a Mediterranean Spur Thighed Tort. I leant toward Testido graeca ibera for her as she doesn't have the pale patch on her head that Joe did, but she does have a very pointy nose, so you are probably correct. It doesn't matter though as the care of all Greeks is the same. She is old, you can see that from her shell and that isn't a sign of a current care problem, it is decades of wear and tear.

Hibernation occurs at temperatures below 10C. Ideally steady around 5C and never below freezing. It is near impossible to achieve this in a single box as the temperatures vary too much and the tortoise can move to the outer edges and be affected if the garage temperature drops below freezing.

We double boxed Joe for years. We had a massive outer box bought from a removal company which was stuffed hard with hay, strwaw and/or shredded paper packed quite hard. The inner box was from an iron (Joe was quite big) and stuffed with shredded paper. We had a wireless indoor/outdoor thermometer with a min/max feature that we bought for about £10 from Amazon; the outdoor sensor went in the box with Joe and so I could keep an eye on how the temperature was in the box with him. The outer box kept temperatures remarkably stable, but a prolonged warm week in December with temperatures in the high teens by day a few years ago forced me to switch to fridge hibernation. Climate change means our winters just aren't as steadily cold as they used to be.

You are doing the right thing in bringing her in for the night, but I would provide a basking lamp to get her going in the mornings and be soaking her for a good 30 minutes every morning too.

On sunny days, the temperatures at tortoise level in sunny sheltered spots in your garden will far exceed those advertised on the weather forecast... And in the south of England it's been in the low teens as a high. Joe was an absolute nightmare indoors unless he was stone cold, so he got turfed out regardless and my thread I linked to earlier shows how I helped him to cope with our climate.

She cannot eat or digest food properly unless she is given the opportunity to warm up thoroughly. This will take 2-3 hours for a big tortoise under a basking lamp.


I am guessing I know which forum that was and I don't have a high opinion of it. I was a member there myself, but witnessed far too much bullying of inexperienced newbies on there with the mods being some of the worst. I found a supportive home on TFO and stayed here, making friends around the world. Welcome

There is a lot to learn, I learned a lot when I joined and continue to learn, and to pass on what I know.

Your tort's diet should be weedy and leafy greens. These garden torts eat more garden than you are aware and if they're out grazing and they're not losing weight then don't worry too much about what exactly they're eating. I supplemented Joe's grazing every day with romaine or little gem lettuce, dandelions I picked and other greens that I found, but the majority of his diet was garden ... which is handy if you go away a couple of days as you don't need to worry.

Greeks can't digest sugars properly, they cause digestive and kidney problems, so tomato, fruit, peppers and carrot should only be fed very sparingly and very occasionally if at all.

Your tort isn't growing and is unlikely to need calcium supplements. Indeed it is possible to overdo this and cause bladder stones. I never used calcium powder, but did leave a cuttlebone (bird aisle of any pet shop) out; Joe largely ignored it after he stopped growing. If you choose to use calcium powder then you need a very tiny pinch sprinkled very sparsely on food three days a week... no more! They will refuse food if they detect it!

Do use The Tortoise Table Plant Database as a handy look up for what you can pick from the garden or from your supermarket to feed. Don't panic about plants that aren't suitable to feed that are growing in your garden. I had three types of plant in my garden: edible, trampled and big enough for Joe to be forced to walk round them. He decided what he liked (and I still haven't forgiven him for eating my Sedum spectibile to the ground)
https://www.thetortoisetable.org.uk

When the weeds aren't plentiful, I did supplement with pellets. Joe was dreadfully picky, but he would eat Komodo pellets well softened in water. Mazuri is very popular in the US and can be bought from the Shelled Warriors online shop (I have a higher opinion of the shop than the forum); I never tried Joe on Mazuri
https://www.shelledwarriorsshop.co.uk/mazuri-leaf-eater-200g-7672-p.asp

This is very helpful, Linda. Thank you very much for your continued support.

 

[Pastel Tortie]

I am happy to answer questions. They are best placed o thhe forum, but I don't always see the notifications. Send me a message if I appear to have ignored you!

@LMT_83 She really does mean this. I've gotten to know her on the forum, and she is one of the most helpful, giving people you will find anywhere.

 

[William Lee Kohler]

Hmmmmm! From pictures I've seen this looks like a Marginated Tortoise. Never had one but seen enough pictures that those rear marginals look pretty diagnostic to me.

 

[Cathie G]

Testudo graeca graeca is a Greek tortoise sometimes known as a Mediterranean Spur Thighed Tort. I leant toward Testido graeca ibera for her as she doesn't have the pale patch on her head that Joe did, but she does have a very pointy nose, so you are probably correct. It doesn't matter though as the care of all Greeks is the same. She is old, you can see that from her shell and that isn't a sign of a current care problem, it is decades of wear and tear.

Hibernation occurs at temperatures below 10C. Ideally steady around 5C and never below freezing. It is near impossible to achieve this in a single box as the temperatures vary too much and the tortoise can move to the outer edges and be affected if the garage temperature drops below freezing.

We double boxed Joe for years. We had a massive outer box bought from a removal company which was stuffed hard with hay, strwaw and/or shredded paper packed quite hard. The inner box was from an iron (Joe was quite big) and stuffed with shredded paper. We had a wireless indoor/outdoor thermometer with a min/max feature that we bought for about £10 from Amazon; the outdoor sensor went in the box with Joe and so I could keep an eye on how the temperature was in the box with him. The outer box kept temperatures remarkably stable, but a prolonged warm week in December with temperatures in the high teens by day a few years ago forced me to switch to fridge hibernation. Climate change means our winters just aren't as steadily cold as they used to be.

You are doing the right thing in bringing her in for the night, but I would provide a basking lamp to get her going in the mornings and be soaking her for a good 30 minutes every morning too.

On sunny days, the temperatures at tortoise level in sunny sheltered spots in your garden will far exceed those advertised on the weather forecast... And in the south of England it's been in the low teens as a high. Joe was an absolute nightmare indoors unless he was stone cold, so he got turfed out regardless and my thread I linked to earlier shows how I helped him to cope with our climate.

She cannot eat or digest food properly unless she is given the opportunity to warm up thoroughly. This will take 2-3 hours for a big tortoise under a basking lamp.


I am guessing I know which forum that was and I don't have a high opinion of it. I was a member there myself, but witnessed far too much bullying of inexperienced newbies on there with the mods being some of the worst. I found a supportive home on TFO and stayed here, making friends around the world. Welcome

There is a lot to learn, I learned a lot when I joined and continue to learn, and to pass on what I know.

Your tort's diet should be weedy and leafy greens. These garden torts eat more garden than you are aware and if they're out grazing and they're not losing weight then don't worry too much about what exactly they're eating. I supplemented Joe's grazing every day with romaine or little gem lettuce, dandelions I picked and other greens that I found, but the majority of his diet was garden ... which is handy if you go away a couple of days as you don't need to worry.

Greeks can't digest sugars properly, they cause digestive and kidney problems, so tomato, fruit, peppers and carrot should only be fed very sparingly and very occasionally if at all.

Your tort isn't growing and is unlikely to need calcium supplements. Indeed it is possible to overdo this and cause bladder stones. I never used calcium powder, but did leave a cuttlebone (bird aisle of any pet shop) out; Joe largely ignored it after he stopped growing. If you choose to use calcium powder then you need a very tiny pinch sprinkled very sparsely on food three days a week... no more! They will refuse food if they detect it!

Do use The Tortoise Table Plant Database as a handy look up for what you can pick from the garden or from your supermarket to feed. Don't panic about plants that aren't suitable to feed that are growing in your garden. I had three types of plant in my garden: edible, trampled and big enough for Joe to be forced to walk round them. He decided what he liked (and I still haven't forgiven him for eating my Sedum spectibile to the ground)
https://www.thetortoisetable.org.uk

When the weeds aren't plentiful, I did supplement with pellets. Joe was dreadfully picky, but he would eat Komodo pellets well softened in water. Mazuri is very popular in the US and can be bought from the Shelled Warriors online shop (I have a higher opinion of the shop than the forum); I never tried Joe on Mazuri
https://www.shelledwarriorsshop.co.uk/mazuri-leaf-eater-200g-7672-p.asp

I so agree with you. Listen to the dad that loved and cared for that old walking rock. Why do they have to hibernate anyway? There is a stage that is semi-hibernation. They are captive animals and adapt to their environment. If my tortoise tries to sleep for too long I give him a warm bath and say boo. I'm probably wrong.