Help! My baby hermanns tortoise passed a urate stone the size of his head.. his water bowl is always full and I soak him daily. Mainly feeding romaine lettuce and dandelion greens. Also some moringa, red clover, alfalfa, with cactus flour sprinkled on top. What am I doing wrong?
Help! Bladder stone!
- Thread starter Joe619
- Start date
The_Four_Toed_Edward
Well-Known Member
Welcome to the forum!
How long have you had him?
Urates are a byproduct of protein digestion, so I suspect you are feeding too much protein. Let's see what @Tom thinks
How long have you had him?
Urates are a byproduct of protein digestion, so I suspect you are feeding too much protein. Let's see what @Tom thinks
Thank you for the reply. I’ve had him for about five months. He’s still small, fits in the palm of your hand.
Littleredfootbigredheart
Well-Known Member
Hello! Sorry to hear this
we’ll see what Tom thinks, but if we could get some more housing/care info off you that’d be great! Not all are relevant to this issue at hand, but the bigger picture we have the better
What are your temperatures like all over? Ie basking temp(directly under the bulb), overall day temps(middle and cooler side), night temps?
What kind of basking bulb is being used specifically? Packaging photos are good if you have any
Do you use indoor uv? If so what kind?
How’s humidity?
What’s his substrate?
What kind of monitoring do you have measuring temp&humidity?
A photo of the full set up would be wonderful! Welcome to the forum
we’ll see what Tom thinks, but if we could get some more housing/care info off you that’d be great! Not all are relevant to this issue at hand, but the bigger picture we have the betterWhat are your temperatures like all over? Ie basking temp(directly under the bulb), overall day temps(middle and cooler side), night temps?
What kind of basking bulb is being used specifically? Packaging photos are good if you have any
Do you use indoor uv? If so what kind?
How’s humidity?
What’s his substrate?
What kind of monitoring do you have measuring temp&humidity?
A photo of the full set up would be wonderful! Welcome to the forum
RandyTortoise
Well-Known Member
It is possible that he needs more water. Are you soaking him daily and feeding moisture rich veggies? Just a thought as a bladder stone takes a long time to develop in any animal so I would be hesitant to conclude that is what came out.
Temps are about 90 degrees under his basking light and room temp on the other side. Usually around 70 degrees at night. Using a 10.0 uvb light and a 100 watt basking lamp. Substraight is a mix of reptibark and coco fiber. Gets changed out every couple of months. I know the indoor setup isn’t ideal but until I get a place with a yard this is what I have for now. Hope this helps.Hello! Sorry to hear this
What are your temperatures like all over? Ie basking temp(directly under the bulb), overall day temps(middle and cooler side), night temps?
What kind of basking bulb is being used specifically? Packaging photos are good if you have any
Do you use indoor uv? If so what kind?
How’s humidity?
What’s his substrate?
What kind of monitoring do you have measuring temp&humidity?
A photo of the full set up would be wonderful! Welcome to the forum
longevity
Member
I think clover and alfalfa contain quite a high amount of protein, and as The_Four_Toed_Edward mentioned, he may be getting too much protein. Well, whether it’s high or low also depends on how much you give him daily.
Unfortunately when babies are massed produced, they are generally kept very dry. It may be likely as a hatchling he has been let too dry from the beginning which would contribute to the stone. The alfalfa and clover is very high in protein however feeding only romaine and dandelion greens could be contributing as well. There has to be a wider variety of nutrients in his diet. We see a lot of torts given only greens, significantly struggle with kidney issues. We’re the urates white or tinted pink?
It was a somid white ball about the size of his head. I’ve attached a picture of some of the food I ordered for him from a specialized tortoise place in southern Cali. I even called the guy and told him what kind of tortoise I have and he recommended these packages.
Littleredfootbigredheart
Well-Known Member
Few things of note to hopefully get you on a better track with the indoor set up, babies need a closed chamber to maintain a higher humidity, whilst you can definitely try some tinfoil around the fixtures to cover the mesh, it won’t be the most efficient way and might be worth looking into some alternatives. It does also look to fall below the minimum size for a hatchling.
Your baby is going to need a closed chamber for around the first 2-3years of life.
For the basking temperature underneath you want it around 95f, 90 is a smidge too cool.
Lighting wise you appear to be using some sort of compact uvb bulb, It’s best going with a separate uvb and heat set up, having combined heat and uv, means when adjusting your height to create the desired basking temperature, you’re messing with your UVI zone, they are much more desiccating on the shell and their uv output often very unreliable.
There’s the added fact of uv timing, with the uv timing, every other source of information will tell you 12hours of uv. This is essentially an old fashioned rule that has stuck with a lot of keepers, it stems from the presumption that once the basking light or ambient lighting is on, ie the ‘sun’, that uv must coexist the same amount of hours. Fact is, uv rays only peak for a few hours a day, anyone with a uv meter will confirm this. No tortoise is blasted with 12 hours of uv in the wild, therefore it’s not necessary in captivity. Whilst not necessarily dangerous, it’s potentially annoying to the tortoise to have 12hours on uv in the enclosure.
The right uv bulbs are much more expensive to replace once their uv strength diminishes, so it’s definitely best having it on a 4 hour timer that provides them with all the uv they need, saving your bulb life.
Then some cheaper led lighting for your ambient 12 hour light cycle as well as the basking light on the same 12hrs, your ceramics(if needed) will run 24/7 on a thermostat, hope that all makes sense
The most recommended up to date indoor uv option is t5 tube fluorescent bulbs, they disperse the uv light over a much wider area. Recommended brands are Arcadia proT5 kit 12% or zoo med reptisun t5 10.0(hood usually sold separate)
Hopefully you’ll find these links helpful and they might clear up some further questions.
I made this thread based on the forums care information and added visual aids, it covers correct equipment(uvb, heating bulbs, lighting etc, double check the basking bulb type), correct levels, importance of a closed chamber for younger tortoises(only way to maintain the humidity you need), appropriately maintaining the humidity, safe substrates, there’s lots of visual examples for everything, and a really handy diet link to check out! I go over a greenhouse style set up here, but there’s definitely better options out there, I’ll add some more ideas below for closed chambers
Housing young Russian/Herman
Hello there! In this thread, I’m going to include some information on an effective way to tackle a starter set up/a way you can build a bigger size once your baby is an adult. I know it looks a lot to go over, I like to make sure all bases are covered, I’m happy to break down any information...
tortoiseforum.org
These are some different closed chamber options
Visual inspiration
Hi guys! I’ve had some lovely messages complimenting me on my care sheets I made for all the visuals they include! That makes me so happy because as a visual learner myself, that was my goal🥰 I’ve recently had some requests for some more visual inspiration for set ups that can house babies/...
tortoiseforum.org
Lastly, this one here is good to go over and keep on hand, it’ll help you avoid the wrong bulbs, substrates, housing etc, I always encourage double checking purchases on the forum too before buying
Common keeping errors
Hello everyone! I’d been a long time lurker on this site long before joining just under a year ago now, over that time I’ve seen these husbandry issues come up time and time again, sometimes with dire consequences☹️ I thought this thread might serve as a good visual guide for these common...
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I hope they help!
That’s all great food, yes Will is very good and knowledgeable on his products. We get foods from Kapidolo Farms as well. Are you soaking him daily? What about the humidity levels? Are you also providing these foods moisturized? All of which will help with any lack of hydration that would contribute to the stone.
I see a few things in your picture:
1. The tank is too small. Lack of walking space is one of the contributors to bladder stones.
2. The tank needs to be a closed chamber for a baby. The humidity helps smooth shell growth and helps prevent dehydration.
3. Soaks should be 30-40 minutes daily.
4. The dried food additives you got are great, but you still need more variety. Try many different greens from the store like cilantro, endive, escarole, and arugula. Even better than those are natural weeds like mallow, sow thistle, prickly lettuce, bristly ox tongue, etc..., and leaves like mulberry and grape leaves. Spineless opuntia. How about some Mazuri?
5. You've got the wrong type of UV bulb. Those are ineffective as UV sources and some of them burn reptile eyes. They should not be used. Use real sunlight periodically in a safe enclosure with shade available, or get an Arcadia Pro T5 12% kit for UV.
6. You need bright ambient light for when the UV tube is off. The UV should only be on for a few hours mid day. The ambient and basking lamp need to be on for 12 hours a day.
7. The tortoise needs a humid hide. The half log doesn't hold in humidity.
All of this and much more here:
Info For New People. Please Read This First.
Hello and welcome to tortoiseforum.org! We are all glad you are here! There is no other forum like this anywhere. We have tens of thousands of members from all over the world ranging from kids with their first tortoise to people who have been breeding and keeping high end tortoises since the...
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Tom,I see a few things in your picture:
1. The tank is too small. Lack of walking space is one of the contributors to bladder stones.
2. The tank needs to be a closed chamber for a baby. The humidity helps smooth shell growth and helps prevent dehydration.
3. Soaks should be 30-40 minutes daily.
4. The dried food additives you got are great, but you still need more variety. Try many different greens from the store like cilantro, endive, escarole, and arugula. Even better than those are natural weeds like mallow, sow thistle, prickly lettuce, bristly ox tongue, etc..., and leaves like mulberry and grape leaves. Spineless opuntia. How about some Mazuri?
5. You've got the wrong type of UV bulb. Those are ineffective as UV sources and some of them burn reptile eyes. They should not be used. Use real sunlight periodically in a safe enclosure with shade available, or get an Arcadia Pro T5 12% kit for UV.
6. You need bright ambient light for when the UV tube is off. The UV should only be on for a few hours mid day. The ambient and basking lamp need to be on for 12 hours a day.
7. The tortoise needs a humid hide. The half log doesn't hold in humidity.
All of this and much more here:
Info For New People. Please Read This First.
Hello and welcome to tortoiseforum.org! We are all glad you are here! There is no other forum like this anywhere. We have tens of thousands of members from all over the world ranging from kids with their first tortoise to people who have been breeding and keeping high end tortoises since the...
For the first time I caught all of those things too. Lack of walking space is key in addition to longer soaks.
Soaked Mazuri would be good just for the added hydration. Will's additives are supposed to be just that. They are great additions to the fresh greens/weeds on your list not quite intended to be staples. On the bags it states the ratio of dried leaves to fresh greens...
Some will eat it as-is may not be appropriate to a hatchling tortoise. I suspect not.
Also, if I were to guess, fresh food intake for this little one is probably waaaay too little or non-existent from the post of all of the additives and contributing to the dehydration. Based on Joe 619's photo of the food, I'm betting that it is all this little one gets.
Thanks to you and others on this forum Stump is 3.5yrs and 61.2 lbs this evening after the soak. Figgy (the one my daughter sent me with the fused scutes) is 2yrs 1mo and right over 16lbs. Totally smooth!
Ok I’ll make those changes. Thank you for your help!I see a few things in your picture:
1. The tank is too small. Lack of walking space is one of the contributors to bladder stones.
2. The tank needs to be a closed chamber for a baby. The humidity helps smooth shell growth and helps prevent dehydration.
3. Soaks should be 30-40 minutes daily.
4. The dried food additives you got are great, but you still need more variety. Try many different greens from the store like cilantro, endive, escarole, and arugula. Even better than those are natural weeds like mallow, sow thistle, prickly lettuce, bristly ox tongue, etc..., and leaves like mulberry and grape leaves. Spineless opuntia. How about some Mazuri?
5. You've got the wrong type of UV bulb. Those are ineffective as UV sources and some of them burn reptile eyes. They should not be used. Use real sunlight periodically in a safe enclosure with shade available, or get an Arcadia Pro T5 12% kit for UV.
6. You need bright ambient light for when the UV tube is off. The UV should only be on for a few hours mid day. The ambient and basking lamp need to be on for 12 hours a day.
7. The tortoise needs a humid hide. The half log doesn't hold in humidity.
All of this and much more here:
Info For New People. Please Read This First.
Hello and welcome to tortoiseforum.org! We are all glad you are here! There is no other forum like this anywhere. We have tens of thousands of members from all over the world ranging from kids with their first tortoise to people who have been breeding and keeping high end tortoises since the...
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