Hermann's aggression? (pics)

[Cherbear]

I have two Hermann's torts. Shelly, the one I believe to be female I've bought as an adult and have had for a year and a half. Sheldon, who I believe is male I've bought early this summer. I keep them in a 75 gallon tank during the winter I keep them outside whenever weather permits. They've been just fine together this whole time, but yesterday I was walking toward they tank and saw the female on top of the male. I'm not sure if she was being aggresive or thinking about breeding or what. But if she is female like I think, why would she be on top of him? Maybe it's time to enlarge enclosure? Here is what I saw. Sorry about the poor quality pic.

Here are the two side by side. Shelly is the larger one on the right:

Can you confirm sex. This is Shelly(female?)

This is Sheldon (male?)

Also, if someone knows which type of Hermann's they are that would be great.

---

In the last pic, Sheldon's tail looks smaller than it really is. He was curling it up.

 

[GBtortoises]

Based on the photos you posted, Shelly does appear to be a female and Sheldon a male. Both are Eastern Hermann's, Testudo hermanni boettgeri.
It is not unusual for females Hermann's to mount males and other females when they reach maturity and conditions are right for breeding. Those conditions mainly being their age, size and environmental conditions such as light duration and heat. I've seen many of my adult females act like males even with a male present, courting other females and mounting them. This seems to provoke males into taking charge of the situation and in turn mounting and mating with the aggressive female in a group. In pairs, sexually mature females will often mount males, possibly again to provoke the male into mounting her. Hermann's are also usually very territorial animals. Mounting is used as a display of authority. Typically it's the male's turf, but some don't mature and become aggressive as early and fewer still simply aren't aggressive. But that's not the norm with Eastern Hermann's. You may find just the opposite happening some day soon! Usually with a female being the aggressor there will be very little if any worry of over-aggression or potential physical injury. With the male as the aggressor the situation bears very close watching since males can be relentless in their pursuit and in closed quarters can often cause physical injury to a female. He may also pester her to the point where all she wants to do is hide constantly. Neither is healthy for her. A larger enclosure would give them both more space to be free of each other a little bit. Eastern Hermann's, again especially mature males, are very nomadic within their territory so the more room that you can give them the better off for them.

 

[moswen]

lol, in the first pic she is sayin:

"not so nice down there, is it?"

 

[Cherbear]

Hey, thanks for all the information. That makes a lot of sense. I was in shock to say the least to see her on him, so was second guessing her sex. This has only been the second day that this has happened, but both times were before their regular feeding time, which is about 1/2 hour to an hour after lights come on. After I fed them both days then there would be no more aggression and everything went back to normal. Also, like you said about the female not being over agressive, I think if she wanted to do worse she would. It seems like she's all bark and no bite type of thing. I watched them for quite a while and she never tried to actually bite him, just looked like she wanted to.

I'll keep an eye on them and if it continues I'll pick up a bookshelf at Walmart to see if that changes anything.

 

[egyptiandan]

I agree with Gary Sheldon-male and Shelly-female. How big are they both?

Danny

 

[Cherbear]

The female's 5 inches in length and the male is slightly smaller than that.

 

[egyptiandan]

At that size she is just showing her dominance. A female T.h.boettgeri needs to be a bit over 6 inches to lay eggs. The male will need to be around 5 inches to get the job done.

Danny

 

[Cherbear]

Thanks, that's good to know!

 

[Terry Allan Hall]

Based on the photos you posted, Shelly does appear to be a female and Sheldon a male. Both are Eastern Hermann's, Testudo hermanni boettgeri.
It is not unusual for females Hermann's to mount males and other females when they reach maturity and conditions are right for breeding. Those conditions mainly being their age, size and environmental conditions such as light duration and heat. I've seen many of my adult females act like males even with a male present, courting other females and mounting them. This seems to provoke males into taking charge of the situation and in turn mounting and mating with the aggressive female in a group. In pairs, sexually mature females will often mount males, possibly again to provoke the male into mounting her. Hermann's are also usually very territorial animals. Mounting is used as a display of authority. Typically it's the male's turf, but some don't mature and become aggressive as early and fewer still simply aren't aggressive. But that's not the norm with Eastern Hermann's. You may find just the opposite happening some day soon! Usually with a female being the aggressor there will be very little if any worry of over-aggression or potential physical injury. With the male as the aggressor the situation bears very close watching since males can be relentless in their pursuit and in closed quarters can often cause physical injury to a female. He may also pester her to the point where all she wants to do is hide constantly. Neither is healthy for her. A larger enclosure would give them both more space to be free of each other a little bit. Eastern Hermann's, again especially mature males, are very nomadic within their territory so the more room that you can give them the better off for them.

GB, in your opinion, would an approx. 8' X 5.5' enclosure be large enough for a single male E. Hermann's and 3 females?

If not, what size would you recomend? Getting ready to do some building pretty soon.

Thanks!

 

[Tom]

Cherbear, your torts are gorgeous.

GB, that was great info, thank you for sharing it. That's just not the kind of insight you can find in a book.

 

[GBtortoises]

Terry, most of my Easterns hibernate outdoors, but those few that I bring inside are housed based on the group their from and their body size. I've always kept 1.2 full size or 1.3 medium size Eastern Hermann's in 2' x 6' enclosures with no problems of aggression whatsoever. In some cases were a male is still aggressive I place him in a seperate smaller enclosure altogether. But these are enclosures that the tortoises spend time in only for about 3 months before I hibernate them indoors. Their light duration is reduced to about 12 hours a day and temperatures are kept at the lower end of the activity range. So they don't spend a lot of time in these smaller enclosures. After hibernation in the spring they are put back outdoors in 8' x 16' enclosures again either 1.2 or 1.3 group sizes. Mine have been housed in these size outdoor enclosures almost since I started. There are times during peak breeding season that the enclosures don't seem big enough for the females to escape the males, despite having several hiding areas and obstructions. Personally, I feel that 8' x 16', maybe 8' x 14' is the bare minimum size for 1.3 active Easterns. I would like to go bigger myself if there wasn't so much involved in enlarging my current pens. Of course, if I could feasibly do it, I'd have enclosures measured in acres, not feet!

 

[Terry Allan Hall]

Terry, most of my Easterns hibernate outdoors, but those few that I bring inside are housed based on the group their from and their body size. I've always kept 1.2 full size or 1.3 medium size Eastern Hermann's in 2' x 6' enclosures with no problems of aggression whatsoever. In some cases were a male is still aggressive I place him in a seperate smaller enclosure altogether. But these are enclosures that the tortoises spend time in only for about 3 months before I hibernate them indoors. Their light duration is reduced to about 12 hours a day and temperatures are kept at the lower end of the activity range. So they don't spend a lot of time in these smaller enclosures. After hibernation in the spring they are put back outdoors in 8' x 16' enclosures again either 1.2 or 1.3 group sizes. Mine have been housed in these size outdoor enclosures almost since I started. There are times during peak breeding season that the enclosures don't seem big enough for the females to escape the males, despite having several hiding areas and obstructions. Personally, I feel that 8' x 16', maybe 8' x 14' is the bare minimum size for 1.3 active Easterns. I would like to go bigger myself if there wasn't so much involved in enlarging my current pens. Of course, if I could feasibly do it, I'd have enclosures measured in acres, not feet!

OK, so 8' X 16' is a minimum, then...thanks, GB

Will start building soon.

When I get around to aquiring some marginateds, should I up the dimensions a bit, as they're slightly larger?

Again, thanks for your advice!

 

[GBtortoises]

Terry,

Marginateds males can definitely be very aggressive and they do get bigger (need more room) than Eastern Hermann's. My full grown Marginated group consists of four adults that average about 11-12" each. They are in a 16' x 16' enclosure with lots of shelters when outdoors but I think that should probably be bigger. I just don't feel like they have enough room. Years ago I would seperate all males from the females of all species except for breeding season in the spring and early fall so enclosure size wasn't as big of an issue then because the females weren't being constantly pressured. But as the number of tortoises grew and the number of enclosures didn't I ended up putting the males with the females full time. I'm actually considering going back the other way now. I think the females are less stressed overall that way.

 

[Terry Allan Hall]

Terry,

Marginateds males can definitely be very aggressive and they do get bigger (need more room) than Eastern Hermann's. My full grown Marginated group consists of four adults that average about 11-12" each. They are in a 16' x 16' enclosure with lots of shelters when outdoors but I think that should probably be bigger. I just don't feel like they have enough room. Years ago I would seperate all males from the females of all species except for breeding season in the spring and early fall so enclosure size wasn't as big of an issue then because the females weren't being constantly pressured. But as the number of tortoises grew and the number of enclosures didn't I ended up putting the males with the females full time. I'm actually considering going back the other way now. I think the females are less stressed overall that way.

OK, minimally, 16' X 16' (or equivalent in square feet)...got it.

The wife and I've discussed my breeding plans and we've agreed that I can use 2 acres as I see fit if I'll build her some large garden boxes and a small (20' X 10' X 8') greenhouse.

 

[GBtortoises]

"The wife and I've discussed my breeding plans and we've agreed that I can use 2 acres as I see fit if I'll build her some large garden boxes and a small (20' X 10' X 8') greenhouse."

That sounds like a heck of deal in my book! I have the room to expand, as far as acerage, but have been putting it off because the plan is to move into a smaller house once the last child is out in about 5 years. I just don't want to put anymore work into things I have to tear up and move later!

 

[Terry Allan Hall]

"The wife and I've discussed my breeding plans and we've agreed that I can use 2 acres as I see fit if I'll build her some large garden boxes and a small (20' X 10' X 8') greenhouse."

That sounds like a heck of deal in my book! I have the room to expand, as far as acerage, but have been putting it off because the plan is to move into a smaller house once the last child is out in about 5 years. I just don't want to put anymore work into things I have to tear up and move later!

I certainly understand, as we're considering moving to N. Carolina in a few years, ourselves...thus, I'm designing wooden enclosures that can be taken apart and reassembled, rather than building in stone, my prefernce.

Once we've moved, I'll start building more permenant enclosures.

 

[GBtortoises]

All my outdoor enclosures are made of pressure treated plywood. Quick and easy to build and install. Also easier to move when the time comes.

 

[Terry Allan Hall]

All my outdoor enclosures are made of pressure treated plywood. Quick and easy to build and install. Also easier to move when the time comes.

Generally use 2 X 4's or 2 X 12's...they hold up to the sun here in The Republic better.

 

[Cherbear]

Thanks for the nice comments. These two days were the only days that I saw her do this. She has not done it since I took those pictures. Crazy torts!