Hibernation

[mark1]

i actually think northeast ohio got you beat on inconsistent temperatures ?
if their survival was dependent on air temperature there would be no turtles in northeast ohio..... 50 degree temperature swings are common here , i'm sure we have had 60-70 degree temp swings ......just this month it went from 35F to 78F, last january it was -11F, two days later it was 51F..... brumation is more dependent on ground temperature...... we've gone almost 2 months without air temp getting above freezing, a week without getting above 10F, temps down to -20F, no reptile could survive those conditions if that's what they were depending on..... a warm spell in february here followed by cold and 2ft of snow can swing the river temps 30 degrees in less than12hrs...... in my time here , the temperature has ranged from -20F to 104F, the temp swings you describe are nothing out of the ordinary as far as what i've seen...... my personal opinion is artificial brumation looks way more dangerous, definitely more complicated........

 

[Tom]

i actually think northeast ohio got you beat on inconsistent temperatures ?
if their survival was dependent on air temperature there would be no turtles in northeast ohio..... 50 degree temperature swings are common here , i'm sure we have had 60-70 degree temp swings ......just this month it went from 35F to 78F, last january it was -11F, two days later it was 51F..... brumation is more dependent on ground temperature...... we've gone almost 2 months without air temp getting above freezing, a week without getting above 10F, temps down to -20F, no reptile could survive those conditions if that's what they were depending on..... a warm spell in february here followed by cold and 2ft of snow can swing the river temps 30 degrees in less than12hrs...... in my time here , the temperature has ranged from -20F to 104F, the temp swings you describe are nothing out of the ordinary as far as what i've seen...... my personal opinion is artificial brumation looks way more dangerous, definitely more complicated........

Your climate is colder. Plain and simple. Your warm spells are 50. Our coldest winter days are 50. Our warm spells are 80 or 90 in winter. It stays consistently cold where you are all winter. It does not stay consistently cold here ever. An Ohio day warming up to 50 will not bring most tortoises out of brumation. 10 days of 80-90 and sunny will. We have day to night temp swings of 40-50 almost every day here all year long too. We can go from a daytime high of 50 to a daytime high of 80 in two days here. Not over the course of a month.

Whatever our thoughts on the matter, the fact is that inconsistent warm temps here make outdoor brumation problematic, and advice from people in colder climates likes yours frequently causes death here. We recommend "artificial" brumation because that is the only way to keep consistent cold temps for 2-4 months in a row here, and because it is the best and safest way to do it in a climate like mine or the OPs.

 

[mark1]

we'll agree to disagree, you obviously have no idea of what the climate here is like....... a warm spell in march is 70-80, a cold spell 30-40, maybe some 20's we've had some single digits........ a warm spell in february is 60-70, a cold spell 0 -10.......last february it was 22F on the 25th, it was 70F on the 27th, was 23F on the 29th , and 74F on the 4th.... if inconsistent kills them, they'd all be dead here.........

 

[Alex and the Redfoot]

Mark, do native turtles there stay close to surface and don't burrow deep? I remember that you've just covered yours with a pile of dried leaves. Adult marginated tortoises don't burrow and perhaps this allows them to quickly catch some warmth during sunny days (even when air temperatures are low) and avoid being flooded.

I guess Tom's point was that "inconsistency" is about warm spells too warm and too long - tortoises wake up from brumation and start doing their usual business and then next temperature drop kills them when they are awake and unprepared. And that's what Martellone described above.

 

[mark1]

eastern box turtles do not burrow, the deepest i have ever seen one here is 3-4".....

the article you posted says t.marginata are found in hot arid environments and have been found frozen to the ground only to be seen days later basking at 8C...... they appear to me to be typical temperate reptiles.....

natural range of spotted turtles, lakeland fl. and bracebridge ontario..... a 12 month active season to a 3 month active season

i bought a N.A. wood turtle that was raised in south florida miramar fl. he was 10-15yrs old, tionesta pa. is within their natural range...... i hibernated him the first year here...... beautiful perfect turtle when i got him...... a 12 month active season to a 6 month active season

heres sarande albania said to be within t. marginata natural range and bakersfield california., i'm assuming bakersfield is a pretty hot place???? doesn't look like a problem to me ........

 

[The_Four_Toed_Edward]

the article you posted says t.marginata are found in hot arid environments and have been found frozen to the ground only to be seen days later basking at 8C...... they appear to me to be typical temperate reptiles....

Still I wouldn't let the temperatures drop down to freezing inside the box. This is captivity after all. Maybe they can stand it, but it doesn't need to be replicated.

 

[Alex and the Redfoot]

eastern box turtles do not burrow, the deepest i have ever seen one here is 3-4".....

the article you posted says t.marginata are found in hot arid environments and have been found frozen to the ground only to be seen days later basking at 8C...... they appear to me to be typical temperate reptiles.....

natural range of spotted turtles, lakeland fl. and bracebridge ontario..... a 12 month active season to a 3 month active season

i bought a N.A. wood turtle that was raised in south florida miramar fl. he was 10-15yrs old, tionesta pa. is within their natural range...... i hibernated him the first year here...... beautiful perfect turtle when i got him...... a 12 month active season to a 6 month active season

heres sarande albania said to be within t. marginata natural range and bakersfield california., i'm assuming bakersfield is a pretty hot place???? doesn't look like a problem to me ........

I read that typical behaviour for Greek and Russian tortoises is to burrow deep and disappear for several months. In that sense, Marginated tortoises seem to be different.

Not sure if I got your idea behind temperature charts but they look like good temps for Marginated to do their business. Nighttime lows are missing from full picture, though

 

[Martellone]

At the moment the temperature in the attic fluctuates between 6 and 7.5 ° C. Let's see the next few days since on the weekend they call -8 / -9 ° C.. in the end I hope I made the right choice with controlled hibernation.. also because we would have been sorry to lose him. Even though he is only 7 years old he is a 30 cm beast and even though he has only been in my father's garden since June he has shown signs of very interesting interaction with us like coming to bask more than once next to my foot

 

[mark1]

the entire goal

Still I wouldn't let the temperatures drop down to freezing inside the box. This is captivity after all. Maybe they can stand it, but it doesn't need to be replicated.

as said freezing is the only thing aside from disease that i think could possibly kill them from hibernation....... if kept outside, imo, they should never put in a box with a bottom, they need access to the natural ground......

 

[mark1]

I read that typical behaviour for Greek and Russian tortoises is to burrow deep and disappear for several months. In that sense, Marginated tortoises seem to be different.

Not sure if I got your idea behind temperature charts but they look like good temps for Marginated to do their business. Nighttime lows are missing from full picture, though

the temps show temperate reptiles i'm familiar with and the different climates they thrive in ...... spotted turtle naturally live from georgian bay ontario to polk county florida....... i know folks that raise N.A. wood turtles in south florida, and louisianna , they naturally occur in quebec, northern minnesota, northern wisconsin, northern michigan, brumation is called brumation because it's not always the same as hibernation...... temperate reptiles have evolved to co-exist with temperature changes, temp swings are normal world wide .........

i have to think the average lows are indicative of night time lows, as the lowest temperatures are almost exclusively at night......

 

[Martellone]

the entire goal

as said freezing is the only thing aside from disease that i think could possibly kill them from hibernation....... if kept outside, imo, they should never put in a box with a bottom, they need access to the natural ground......

as the breeders here say..but I don't know if you saw the photo at the beginning of the post and it hadn't buried itself..it dug maybe 2 cm and then with the arrival of the cold it had blocked like that..that's why I opted for hibernation in a box

 

[mark1]

At the moment the temperature in the attic fluctuates between 6 and 7.5 ° C. Let's see the next few days since on the weekend they call -8 / -9 ° C.. in the end I hope I made the right choice with controlled hibernation.. also because we would have been sorry to lose him. Even though he is only 7 years old he is a 30 cm beast and even though he has only been in my father's garden since June he has shown signs of very interesting interaction with us like coming to bask more than once next to my foot

my thought would be, don't let him freeze

as the breeders here say..but I don't know if you saw the photo at the beginning of the post and it hadn't buried itself..it dug maybe 2 cm and then with the arrival of the cold it had blocked like that..that's why I opted for hibernation in a box

those 2cm into the ground , imo, are important......the box turtles here do not dig in here more than a few cm, they use the natural ground to thermo-regulate...... in the wild they'll dig into roots, under fallen logs , here i give them leaves/grass clippings , when it gets real cold i bury them in leaves to help them out....... what is the ground temperature there now.......

 

[Martellone]

my thought would be, don't let him freeze

those 2cm into the ground , imo, are important......the box turtles here do not dig in here more than a few cm, they use the natural ground to thermo-regulate...... in the wild they'll dig into roots, under fallen logs , here i give them leaves/grass clippings , when it gets real cold i bury them in leaves to help them out....... what is the ground temperature there now.......

I don't know the ground temperature..but when it freezes, it freezes more than 2 cm.

Even if it's freezing outside now in the attic it definitely won't go below 0...if it gets too close to 2 degrees I can even move the box to the cellar...but I don't think there will be any need

 

[The_Four_Toed_Edward]

I don't know the ground temperature..but when it freezes, it freezes more than 2 cm.

Even if it's freezing outside now in the attic it definitely won't go below 0...if it gets too close to 2 degrees I can even move the box to the cellar...but I don't think there will be any need

Just keep a close eye on the temperatures!

 

[mark1]

eastern box turtles dig in to where their carapace is flush with the surface, the deepest i ever seen one was 2-3" ...... the frost line where i live is 36-42 inches......... if you put a box turtle here in a box where he cannot get to the natural ground it will freeze to death, been there done that...... i had a small box/house for some R.P. manni that was heated , when i moved them out the box turtle pen, i left the box/house in the box turtle pen, minus the heat, it had a bottom......box turtles went in it all the time , i closed it up as winter set in so the box turtles couldn't go in it , somehow i missed one that was in it when i closed it , she froze to death...... whatever the reason those frozen 2cm are important.........

 

[Martellone]

He's back!!
But he doesn't eating at the moment because it's still cold (13 degrees °C this afternoon). But it looks ok

 

[mark1]

good to hear,
only box turtles that have come up here is the one i dug up, and the one that consistently comes up way to early ..........

the leaf pile they are in

the ground temp under the leaves about 1" into the dirt

exposed ground temps here, today 57F... the leaves at this time of year are keeping the ground colder.... our winter weather is not past yet, when i'm confident were getting no more winter i'll remove some of the leaves so the ground warms up faster.....

the ground temps in january 0-4"..... 22nd-23rd ground temp 13F, the leaves help, but not that much.......the difference today is 8F, 8+13=21F, well below freezing

january air temps

and this months air temps, march, no one has come up

 

[Martellone]

Here the winter is gone (i hope)..from the beginning of march the temperature has started to increase during day and I move him from the attic to outside under a leaves pile like yours. After 20 days he wakes up..today 20!!! degrees °C and he eat some dandelion and one strawberry (i give him it to help rehidratation).

7°C of difference at the coldest point under leaves is a very good insulation!!

 

[YOSHI&UMI]

Sorry Tom but i don't agree at all..i understand that for you in america the marginata is an exotic as is my carbonaria here but the Marginata in nature hibernates. I don't understand why you recommend going against nature and not letting it do it. In italy, the place of origin of the sardinian marginata, in Sardinia they regularly hibernate..there however the winters are a little less harsh than here in the mountains

Reading that testudo marginata do not brumate shocked me-yesterday my 12 year old male went into his little house to sleep for the winter. Thank you for writing this post because this is our first year and there is SO MUCH CONFLICTING information that it becomes scary.