Leopard Questions

[Coexist]

Our pretty Leopard tortie, Dragon, is a year old now and my adult son and I have some disagreements on her care/needs as well as questions. I have been a steady advocate for a varied diet of greens and veggies with a little fruit and even some grasses and weeds offered. He says he read they should be only fed lettuce and that should be romaine. Who is right? He said if we give her too good of a diet it could kill her and in the wild they have a poor diet and are made to thrive on that. My son does a lot of research but I beg to differ.

We are also planning on putting her outside in the next week or so. I'm advocating for a large enclosure against the house inside our back yard that is enclosed by a six foot high fence. I want to put a wire fence around her enclosure that is 36" high and we plan on putting something around the outside base so she didn't get any ideas that she needed to get out. Not sure what that will be yet. I'm making her den and following the wonderful ideas in the stickied info post on this board. We have talked about putting a net over the whole thing to keep any birds of prey out but I'm not so sure that's necessary with it right against the house where there is a LOT of traffic from us and our dogs are in and out, and she's not exactly a tiny baby any more.

Big issue between us is the ground. I say she will be fine with a terracotta pool or two or more, and various plants and places to crawl and play. I plan on planting more grass even though there is quite a bit there and planting more greens and weeds. Putting in shade areas of plants and wood and things for her to climb on and play. My son says that he read that the fact that the dirt in GA is clay will not work for her and she will get shell rot and we need to get a new ground cover for her as well.

One question we both have, or should I say "fear" is about ants. We have lots of them in GA. Even though we keep our yard as free of fire ants as possible for the sake of the dogs, cat, and my little girl... ants happen. Do we need to worry and if so, any suggestions? My son has nightmares that he'll find her covered in ants and they will be eating her alive. Any reality to this fear?

Thank you for helping us do the best we can for Dragon!

PS: This is actually my little girl's tortoise. LOL

 

[wellington]

All I can say, is your son is so very wrong on all accounts. Not sure where he has done all his research, but tell him to start researching about leopards on this forum and no place else and he will find all the CORRECT info he needs.
Btw, the fruit is not good for them and they don't need it. Other then that, your diet plan is correct. So is your outdoor enclosure

 

[wellington]

Oh, food grade diatomaceous earth is used by many on this forum for controlling ants and a few other things. Because he's, they could be dangerous for your tortoise.

 

[Yvonne G]

Hi, and welcome to the Forum!

Remind your son that there's a reason people eat a lot of lettuce when dieting. He's right in one respect. Tortoises eat a lot of dried and dead weeds and grasses, but even these still give the tortoise what it needs to grow and survive. Weeds, grass, edible plants - all of these are better for the tortoise than grocery store greens.

 

[Coexist]

I was the advocate of grasses and weeds too. <VBG> I'll resend him the link to this forum and pass your advice to only research here.

 

[Coexist]

Oh, food grade diatomaceous earth is used by many on this forum for controlling ants and a few other things. Because he's, they could be dangerous for your tortoise.

 

[Coexist]

GREAT IDEA!!!! I used to have a big box of the stuff. Not sure if I still have it or not but I know I can get it again for chump change. Now, will that irritate Dragon's shell or feet or anything? Can I sprinkle it inside her enclosure or should I just put around the outside? I could probably use that all over my yard and keep my dogs and cat and little girl safer from the nasty things, couldn't I? I wonder how often I should reapply it? Any ideas? As I said in my original post, ants are one thing I fear as well. We have a field across the street from our house that has many fire ant hills. It also has LOTS of grass and weeds and such that is mowed but never has chemicals put on it. I have a lot next door to me that is the same way except no fire ant hills. We usually treat the hills in the yard right away. The empty lots could be a good source of food for Dragon.

I had an idea of buying a couple of the hard plastic wading pools, drilling holes in the bottom for drainage, putting potting soil in it and planting goodies like the African mix or clover or some of the other goodies. I could then put the whole pool in her enclosure and have a place cut out for her to get into to eat her fresh goodies. When that gets low, I'll take it out, replace it with a new one and replant that one or just give it time to regrow. What do you think of that idea?

 

[wellington]

GREAT IDEA!!!! I used to have a big box of the stuff. Not sure if I still have it or not but I know I can get it again for chump change. Now, will that irritate Dragon's shell or feet or anything? Can I sprinkle it inside her enclosure or should I just put around the outside? I could probably use that all over my yard and keep my dogs and cat and little girl safer from the nasty things, couldn't I? I wonder how often I should reapply it? Any ideas? As I said in my original post, ants are one thing I fear as well. We have a field across the street from our house that has many fire ant hills. It also has LOTS of grass and weeds and such that is mowed but never has chemicals put on it. I have a lot next door to me that is the same way except no fire ant hills. We usually treat the hills in the yard right away. The empty lots could be a good source of food for Dragon.

I had an idea of buying a couple of the hard plastic wading pools, drilling holes in the bottom for drainage, putting potting soil in it and planting goodies like the African mix or clover or some of the other goodies. I could then put the whole pool in her enclosure and have a place cut out for her to get into to eat her fresh goodies. When that gets low, I'll take it out, replace it with a new one and replant that one or just give it time to regrow. What do you think of that idea?

From what I have read from other that have used it, sorry can't remember any of their names to alert them over here, but it is perfectly safe, just be sure its the food grade quality. The container should tell you when it needs replenishing. Of course there may always be that one in a million that will have a reaction to it, but keep a closer eye on your animals the first time you use it for a couple days to make sure everyone is not having problems with it.
As for you growing food container idea, it's a great idea that many use, go for it.

 

[Neal]

Our pretty Leopard tortie, Dragon, is a year old now and my adult son and I have some disagreements on her care/needs as well as questions. I have been a steady advocate for a varied diet of greens and veggies with a little fruit and even some grasses and weeds offered. He says he read they should be only fed lettuce and that should be romaine. Who is right? He said if we give her too good of a diet it could kill her and in the wild they have a poor diet and are made to thrive on that. My son does a lot of research but I beg to differ.

We are also planning on putting her outside in the next week or so. I'm advocating for a large enclosure against the house inside our back yard that is enclosed by a six foot high fence. I want to put a wire fence around her enclosure that is 36" high and we plan on putting something around the outside base so she didn't get any ideas that she needed to get out. Not sure what that will be yet. I'm making her den and following the wonderful ideas in the stickied info post on this board. We have talked about putting a net over the whole thing to keep any birds of prey out but I'm not so sure that's necessary with it right against the house where there is a LOT of traffic from us and our dogs are in and out, and she's not exactly a tiny baby any more.

Big issue between us is the ground. I say she will be fine with a terracotta pool or two or more, and various plants and places to crawl and play. I plan on planting more grass even though there is quite a bit there and planting more greens and weeds. Putting in shade areas of plants and wood and things for her to climb on and play. My son says that he read that the fact that the dirt in GA is clay will not work for her and she will get shell rot and we need to get a new ground cover for her as well.

One question we both have, or should I say "fear" is about ants. We have lots of them in GA. Even though we keep our yard as free of fire ants as possible for the sake of the dogs, cat, and my little girl... ants happen. Do we need to worry and if so, any suggestions? My son has nightmares that he'll find her covered in ants and they will be eating her alive. Any reality to this fear?

Thank you for helping us do the best we can for Dragon!

PS: This is actually my little girl's tortoise. LOL

You were right on with you proposed diet vs your sons, though I would primarily offer grasses and weeds as the staple part of the diet with greens and veggies to supplement.

36" for an enclosure height is fairly high. Did you want it that high for aesthetic purposes? Not a huge deal, but just to relay some experience, 20" - 24" works well for adult leopard tortoises of average size.

I can't speak to GA's soil type, but I have a hard time believing it would cause shell rot in and of itself. As long as proper temperatures are maintained and dryer areas in the enclosure are accessible, I would not worry so much about this.

The ant fears are valid. I've tried diatomaceous earth, chalk and other home remedies for ants but have had no luck...some people swear by it so you may have better luck than I did. The only thing I've gotten to work is ant bait traps. I'm not a fan of using them for fear that the ants would carry the poison over tortoise food items, but ants harming the tortoises is the greater risk in my opinion so that's how I choose to deal with it.

 

[teresaf]

I like the idea of a shorter enclosure height too. That way you can reach in from different angles to pick him up, check for ants, fill his dish or just hold him for a minute. It's a good idea that he's close to the house so you can see him several times a day to check if he's flipped over or anything. You are forgetting one really important thing though...PICTURES!!! We love pictures....

 

[teresaf]

Oh, surely there is a way to kill off fire ants colonies? Google? pest control company?

 

[Coexist]

Actually, there are many ways to kill Fire Ant Hills. One popular way in GA is to pour kerosene into the top of the hill and then around the base and then light it all on fire. It works. A way we have found that works better for us is to get this fire ant killer and when a mound comes up, we put a tablespoon of the stuff in the hole at the top. It gets to the queen and it will kill the whole mound. That's why we don't have any in our yard. It makes me a bit nervous because it is using chemicals but it is only at a direct spot going underground and we do not treat the yard like many folks do.

As to the height of the fence, it's to make sure the dogs do stay out but we probably don't need it. Maybe we'll return that fencing since it's not open and get the shorter stuff. I would kill myself trying to step over it anyway. I walk a little but mostly I'm in a wheelchair. But we'll make an easy access place for me to get inside.

We are talking about getting her a baby sister or brother. Hopefully a sister. She would be too big to play with her this year but next year the two could be real buddies. We are also debating if we want to get another leopard or a sulcata. Any thoughts on this issue?

By the way, my son fed her a bunch of grass today and she LOVED it! She's gonna be just fine.

 

[teresaf]

actually there's a lot of people on here that have noticed that two tortoises don't get along as well as three or four do. They need to be relatively the same size as well because they can Flip each other. also I've read not to mix species for various good reasons.

 

[Coexist]

I'm on my way to getting Dragon's new garden done. I thought I had seen a list somewhere on what are safe plants to put in her digs but don't know where I saw it. Old age creeps in... Grrr. Any help would be appreciated. Thank you in advance.

 

[Vishnu2]

http://www.thetortoisetable.org.uk/site/plant_database_14.asp Here you go.

 

[Tom]

I agree with the other posters. Your son is way off base and you are much closer. He's been reading all the wrong stuff.

They don't need fruit and its not good for them. Best to skip it. Here are some feeding ideas, just use less emphasis on the grass for leopards.
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/for-those-who-have-a-young-sulcata.76744/

Leopard are not prone to shell rot. Your outside clay dirt will be fine.

Tortoise don't want of need a "friend". In fact another tortoise will be viewed as an intruder in the territory, a resource competitor, or a potential tormenter. Groups usually work out okay, but pairs usually don't.

Your 36" wire might not be enough to keep the dogs out. Use GREAT caution here. Your family dogs are by far the single greatest threat to your tortoise.

Sulcatas are great, but they grow up to be giant destructive monsters. Are you sure you know what you are getting into? You'd definitely need to house them separately. Did your son read that its fine to put them together? Hahaha.

These might help:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/how-to-raise-a-healthy-sulcata-or-leopard-version-2-0.78361/
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/beginner-mistakes.45180/

These ideas will help in another year or two:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/my-best-night-box-design-yet.66867/
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/another-night-box-thread.88966/

 

[BeeBee*BeeLeaves]

Agree with everything Tom said.
Terrible twos. Two is an awful number for tortoise keeping. So either solitaire or a party of three or more.
Also, mint. As in mint juleps in the summer. I have mint in containers outside of the habitats where I had ants before and voila! no more ants.
In containers, because it can become invasive.
Ants hate mint. As do rats and raccoons. They just do not like the smell of it.
And like I said, mint juleps in the summer or mint tea when you have indigestion.
Double duty, good.

 

[Coexist]

We do have dogs, two small ones and one large. I know my dogs pretty good and they have been around Dragon most of her life. Not running loose mind you but she is not a stranger. Still, besides the blocks and fence we are putting up bird netting to discourage any further investigation and being her garden is right next to the patio and back door, we can watch her extra close as well.

I've been busy planting goodies in her enclosure as well as in some plastic boxes I repurposed from cherry tomatoes I like to eat. This way I can give her fresh goodies every day as well as the goodies my own backyard and the empty lot next door and across the street provide. They are lush with weeds and grasses right now.

I did not know about the mint but you can better believe we are going to be putting it around her garden outside and a few other places on our land too. Thank you for the info.

I really appreciate all the info I have found here. I think I have read each sticky at least twice but that's not saying this old porous brain holds it all in. I am doing my best though.

I appreciated the link to the plants that are safe but is there any for the USA? I had it with me at Lowes looking for plants and it was a nightmare. I couldn't find half the stuff they had there, and the stuff on the list wasn't anywhere to be found. Ugh.

 

[Cowboy_Ken]

For seeds check out eBay. Just make sure it is organic seed and that you double check the Latin name for the plant not just the English.

 

[Cowboy_Ken]

And I do recommend growing your own. Doing so ensures that you know they are chemical free.
California poppies, pansies, dandelion, mallow to name just a few should all be available to you.