Leopard tortoise size and pyramiding

[Hydra.1942]

Hello, this is my 3 1/2 year old leopard tortoise Luna. She is very active and seems to be pretty healthy but I have a few concerns. She's exactly 9 inches long and 5 1/2 inches wide and I'm concerned that she is not large enough for her age. She also has some pretty visible pyramiding. So I would really appreciate if someone could tell me if I am doing something wrong or just help me in any way.

Housing... She lives in a wooden sealed enclosure I built, Its about 5 and half feet long and about a yard wide. She has a uvb strip and a uvb bulb. Her warm side reaches temperatures of 95 degrees to 105 degrees. Her cold side during the day is about 80 and drops to 75 at night. Her humidity is a constant 50%.

Diet... She is fed a mixture of Leaf Lettuce, Collard greens, Mustard greens, Turnip greens and occasional dandelion greens. Every meal is roughly the volume of her shell and is supplemented with Timothy hay, calcium powder and Grassland tortoise pellets every day. She also has access to fresh water 24/7

Substrate... a mix of potting soil and reptile safe mulch.

Activity... Because I live in a place where tortoise theft is common she exclusively lives inside. To make up for this she is taken to my public park and walked once a week and gets walked in our backyard every few days.
Again I appreciate any help.

 

[wellington]

That is way too small of an enclosure for one her size. I had to rescue a leopard that was kept in too small an enclosure. If she doesn't already, she will develop walking problems as she can't buildup muscle strength. She needs to live outside in summer with a hide that gets locked each night and a room size enclosure for inside.
The one I rescued was also undersized due to the small enclosure and it got bad care all around.
Get the enclosure improved ASAP.
What is the diet?
Temps?

 

[Tom]

Hello, this is my 3 1/2 year old leopard tortoise Luna. She is very active and seems to be pretty healthy but I have a few concerns. She's exactly 9 inches long and 5 1/2 inches wide and I'm concerned that she is not large enough for her age. She also has some pretty visible pyramiding. So I would really appreciate if someone could tell me if I am doing something wrong or just help me in any way.

Housing... She lives in a wooden sealed enclosure I built, Its about 5 and half feet long and about a yard wide. She has a uvb strip and a uvb bulb. Her warm side reaches temperatures of 95 degrees to 105 degrees. Her cold side during the day is about 80 and drops to 75 at night. Her humidity is a constant 50%.

Diet... She is fed a mixture of Leaf Lettuce, Collard greens, Mustard greens, Turnip greens and occasional dandelion greens. Every meal is roughly the volume of her shell and is supplemented with Timothy hay, calcium powder and Grassland tortoise pellets every day. She also has access to fresh water 24/7

Substrate... a mix of potting soil and reptile safe mulch.

Activity... Because I live in a place where tortoise theft is common she exclusively lives inside. To make up for this she is taken to my public park and walked once a week and gets walked in our backyard every few days.
Again I appreciate any help. View attachment 352274View attachment 352275

Hello and welcome to the forum.

The following is intended to help you take better care of your tortoise. Almost all of the care info out in the world is all wrong, and you are making some of the commonly seen mistakes due to all that wrong info that circulates out there. Here is what I see:
1. What type of UV strip and what type of UV bulb? Most people get sold the wrong ones at the pet shop, and told the wrong ones by people on YT and FB.
2. What sort of sealed wooden enclosure? Sealed how? Is the wood treated? Do you mean that its a closed chamber with all the heating and lighting inside?
3. Humidity should have been 80+%. 50% is much too low, and that contributed to the pyramiding.
4. 75 at night is too cool. Keep it 80.
5. Is that 105 basking temp at tortoise shell height, or on the ground under the bulb? How are you measuring that temp?
6. Grocery store greens are not great. If you must use them, favor endive and escarole. Add in all the ones you are using plus cilantro, arugula and more for variety. The ZooMed should not be used every day. A couple times a week is good. Soaked horse hay pellets are good to add fiber too.
7. Hay is not an appropriate food for small tortoises, and leopards are not really grass eaters. Hay is not seem,thing I would feed to a regular leopard.
8. Calcium supplements should only be used about twice a week. More than that is unnecessary and can be detrimental.
9. Soil should never be used as reptile substrate. Definitely not potting soil due to all the additives. Soil is made from composted yard waste and all sorts of weird stuff. You can't know what its made of and it could be toxic or dangerous. The makers and sellers do not intend for small animals to be living in or on it. What type of mulch? Cypress? Orchid bark?
10. Public parks are full of all sorts of toxins and dangers and it is not safe to let your tortoise roam there. This is likely to end in one of many potential disasters.
11. Your enclosure is much too small for a 9 inch tortoise. Your tortoise is about the right size for its age, but the enclosure needs to be about the size of half a room now. Tortoises need huge enclosures compared to other reptiles. Even 4x8 feet is a bit small for your tort.

Here is the correct care info for your tortoise:

The Best Way To Raise A Sulcata, Leopard, Or Star Tortoise

I chose the title of this care sheet very carefully. Are there other ways to raise babies? Yes. Yes there are, but those ways are not as good. What follows is the BEST way, according to 30 years of research and experimentation with hundreds of babies of many species. Babies hatch during the...

tortoiseforum.org

Questions are welcome.

 

[Hydra.1942]

Hello and welcome to the forum.

The following is intended to help you take better care of your tortoise. Almost all of the care info out in the world is all wrong, and you are making some of the commonly seen mistakes due to all that wrong info that circulates out there. Here is what I see:
1. What type of UV strip and what type of UV bulb? Most people get sold the wrong ones at the pet shop, and told the wrong ones by people on YT and FB.
2. What sort of sealed wooden enclosure? Sealed how? Is the wood treated? Do you mean that its a closed chamber with all the heating and lighting inside?
3. Humidity should have been 80+%. 50% is much too low, and that contributed to the pyramiding.
4. 75 at night is too cool. Keep it 80.
5. Is that 105 basking temp at tortoise shell height, or on the ground under the bulb? How are you measuring that temp?
6. Grocery store greens are not great. If you must use them, favor endive and escarole. Add in all the ones you are using plus cilantro, arugula and more for variety. The ZooMed should not be used every day. A couple times a week is good. Soaked horse hay pellets are good to add fiber too.
7. Hay is not an appropriate food for small tortoises, and leopards are not really grass eaters. Hay is not seem,thing I would feed to a regular leopard.
8. Calcium supplements should only be used about twice a week. More than that is unnecessary and can be detrimental.
9. Soil should never be used as reptile substrate. Definitely not potting soil due to all the additives. Soil is made from composted yard waste and all sorts of weird stuff. You can't know what its made of and it could be toxic or dangerous. The makers and sellers do not intend for small animals to be living in or on it. What type of mulch? Cypress? Orchid bark?
10. Public parks are full of all sorts of toxins and dangers and it is not safe to let your tortoise roam there. This is likely to end in one of many potential disasters.
11. Your enclosure is much too small for a 9 inch tortoise. Your tortoise is about the right size for its age, but the enclosure needs to be about the size of half a room now. Tortoises need huge enclosures compared to other reptiles. Even 4x8 feet is a bit small for your tort.

Here is the correct care info for your tortoise:

The Best Way To Raise A Sulcata, Leopard, Or Star Tortoise

I chose the title of this care sheet very carefully. Are there other ways to raise babies? Yes. Yes there are, but those ways are not as good. What follows is the BEST way, according to 30 years of research and experimentation with hundreds of babies of many species. Babies hatch during the...

tortoiseforum.org

Questions are welcome.

Hello and welcome to the forum.

The following is intended to help you take better care of your tortoise. Almost all of the care info out in the world is all wrong, and you are making some of the commonly seen mistakes due to all that wrong info that circulates out there. Here is what I see:
1. What type of UV strip and what type of UV bulb? Most people get sold the wrong ones at the pet shop, and told the wrong ones by people on YT and FB.
2. What sort of sealed wooden enclosure? Sealed how? Is the wood treated? Do you mean that its a closed chamber with all the heating and lighting inside?
3. Humidity should have been 80+%. 50% is much too low, and that contributed to the pyramiding.
4. 75 at night is too cool. Keep it 80.
5. Is that 105 basking temp at tortoise shell height, or on the ground under the bulb? How are you measuring that temp?
6. Grocery store greens are not great. If you must use them, favor endive and escarole. Add in all the ones you are using plus cilantro, arugula and more for variety. The ZooMed should not be used every day. A couple times a week is good. Soaked horse hay pellets are good to add fiber too.
7. Hay is not an appropriate food for small tortoises, and leopards are not really grass eaters. Hay is not seem,thing I would feed to a regular leopard.
8. Calcium supplements should only be used about twice a week. More than that is unnecessary and can be detrimental.
9. Soil should never be used as reptile substrate. Definitely not potting soil due to all the additives. Soil is made from composted yard waste and all sorts of weird stuff. You can't know what its made of and it could be toxic or dangerous. The makers and sellers do not intend for small animals to be living in or on it. What type of mulch? Cypress? Orchid bark?
10. Public parks are full of all sorts of toxins and dangers and it is not safe to let your tortoise roam there. This is likely to end in one of many potential disasters.
11. Your enclosure is much too small for a 9 inch tortoise. Your tortoise is about the right size for its age, but the enclosure needs to be about the size of half a room now. Tortoises need huge enclosures compared to other reptiles. Even 4x8 feet is a bit small for your tort.

Here is the correct care info for your tortoise:

The Best Way To Raise A Sulcata, Leopard, Or Star Tortoise

I chose the title of this care sheet very carefully. Are there other ways to raise babies? Yes. Yes there are, but those ways are not as good. What follows is the BEST way, according to 30 years of research and experimentation with hundreds of babies of many species. Babies hatch during the...

tortoiseforum.org

Questions are welcome.

Hello, first Id like to thankyou for the information. I would also like to thankyou for the info sheet.
The Uvb strip and bulb are high wattage and supposedly good for desert dwelling reptiles. Right under neath my heat bulb the top of the substrate reaches 105 degrees. The mulch I use in my enclosure was bought at a local reptile store and was recommended by a friend. The enclosure is essentially a large sealed box to hold in the heat and humidity. The wood was sealed with a non toxic sealer made to withstand outdoor exposure. So I can easily change the heat and the humidity. I can also improver her diet. I also have question if you don't mind. I was actually thinking of moving my tortoise to an outside pen in my backyard that will be 12 feet wide and 30 feet long. But now I'm hesitant to do so because of the humidity. I live in Phoenix Arizona where there is no humidity what so ever for the majority of the year. I knew that she would have to be soaked more frequently to combat this. So I guess my question is; Is it worth housing her outside during the warm months or keep her in an indoor enclosure?

 

[Tom]

Hello, first Id like to thankyou for the information. I would also like to thankyou for the info sheet.
The Uvb strip and bulb are high wattage and supposedly good for desert dwelling reptiles. Right under neath my heat bulb the top of the substrate reaches 105 degrees. The mulch I use in my enclosure was bought at a local reptile store and was recommended by a friend. The enclosure is essentially a large sealed box to hold in the heat and humidity. The wood was sealed with a non toxic sealer made to withstand outdoor exposure. So I can easily change the heat and the humidity. I can also improver her diet. I also have question if you don't mind. I was actually thinking of moving my tortoise to an outside pen in my backyard that will be 12 feet wide and 30 feet long. But now I'm hesitant to do so because of the humidity. I live in Phoenix Arizona where there is no humidity what so ever for the majority of the year. I knew that she would have to be soaked more frequently to combat this. So I guess my question is; Is it worth housing her outside during the warm months or keep her in an indoor enclosure?

Most people get the wrong bulbs. Some of them are dangerous, and some of them cause more pyramiding. If you will tell us what types of bulbs they are, we can make recommendations that will help. High wattage sound like an MVB, and those cause pyramiding. The strip lights are not usually high wattage. Are you thinking "high output", as in HO? If yes, that one is probably good, but it does depend on which one you got.

Reptile stores usually give terrible advice and sell the wrong products. Friends learn about tortoise care from the same wrong sources of info that the pet shops and everyone else learns from. What type of wood mulch did you get? If its orchid bark or cypress mulch, then it is probably okay. If its something else, probably not okay.

It sounds like you have a closed chamber. Are the heat sources and lighting contained inside the enclosure or on top of it?

At your tortoise's size, outdoor living would be wonderful in your climate. You will have to use plants, shade cloth, sprinklers and misters throughout summer time to keep your tortoise cooler, but most of the rest of the year is great. You will need an insulated, temperature controlled night box. This shelter will give the tortoise a safe place to retreat to, a cooler shady area in summer, and a warm palace in winter. You can unplug the heat in summer, but its thermostatically controlled, so it will keep the tortoise warm at night and on cooler days for the rest of the year. Like this:

Single Tortoise Night Box

I like my larger tortoises to live outside full time. My climate permits this year round with a little help. For people who live where it snows all winter, this type of box is still good for warmer weather, getting them out earlier in Spring, and keeping them out a bit later into fall. You'll...

tortoiseforum.org

There is something unique about the Phoenix area that seems to agree with growing tortoises. In spite of the dryness, living outside seems to smooth them out. I like having both indoor and outdoor enclosures. The best of both worlds. Your tortoise can be inside at night and on the odd cold winter day, but outside most of the time when the weather is nice. 12x30 feet is a nice size for a small leopard. Plant lots of tortoise friendly plants in and around the enclosure. Potted plants are good too. Use fallen logs and boulders for decoration and to break up the line of sight. Sink a couple of large terra cotta saucers into the ground for water, and another one for food. Set up sprinklers to grow grasses and weeds for the tortoise to eat, and you won't have to "feed" your tortoise very often. The dampness will also add humidity and keep things cooler in hot weather.

 

[Hydra.1942]

Hello again
I honestly cannot thankyou enough for this information. Every outlet I go to gives me different information and lately I've felt like I'm a bad pet owner. But I will continue to do better. What I'm learning on here is seriously boosting my confidence and for that I am truly grateful. Included with this writing I will post a few pics of her current enclosure.

The Mulch I've mixed with the potting soil is cyphrus. Also the potting
soil I use is a peat moss that contains no fertilizer.
Her heating and uvb sources are within the enclosure itself. Here uvb strip light holds uvb 8t bulb that emits 25 watts. Now the uvb bulb on the other side of her enclosure is called an e26 and has 50 watts.
soil I use is a peat moss that contains no fertilizer.
Her heating and uvb sources are within the enclosure itself. Here uvb strip light holds uvb 8t bulb that emits 25 watts. Now the uvb bulb on the other side of her enclosure is called an e26 and has 50 watts.

 

[AmandaF]

Hello, this is my 3 1/2 year old leopard tortoise Luna. She is very active and seems to be pretty healthy but I have a few concerns. She's exactly 9 inches long and 5 1/2 inches wide and I'm concerned that she is not large enough for her age. She also has some pretty visible pyramiding. So I would really appreciate if someone could tell me if I am doing something wrong or just help me in any way.

Housing... She lives in a wooden sealed enclosure I built, Its about 5 and half feet long and about a yard wide. She has a uvb strip and a uvb bulb. Her warm side reaches temperatures of 95 degrees to 105 degrees. Her cold side during the day is about 80 and drops to 75 at night. Her humidity is a constant 50%.

Diet... She is fed a mixture of Leaf Lettuce, Collard greens, Mustard greens, Turnip greens and occasional dandelion greens. Every meal is roughly the volume of her shell and is supplemented with Timothy hay, calcium powder and Grassland tortoise pellets every day. She also has access to fresh water 24/7

Substrate... a mix of potting soil and reptile safe mulch.

Activity... Because I live in a place where tortoise theft is common she exclusively lives inside. To make up for this she is taken to my public park and walked once a week and gets walked in our backyard every few days.
Again I appreciate any help. View attachment 352274View attachment 352275

This site is fantastic they helped me sort the conditions out for my leopard tortoise. Amanda

 

[AmandaF]

Hello, this is my 3 1/2 year old leopard tortoise Luna. She is very active and seems to be pretty healthy but I have a few concerns. She's exactly 9 inches long and 5 1/2 inches wide and I'm concerned that she is not large enough for her age. She also has some pretty visible pyramiding. So I would really appreciate if someone could tell me if I am doing something wrong or just help me in any way.

Housing... She lives in a wooden sealed enclosure I built, Its about 5 and half feet long and about a yard wide. She has a uvb strip and a uvb bulb. Her warm side reaches temperatures of 95 degrees to 105 degrees. Her cold side during the day is about 80 and drops to 75 at night. Her humidity is a constant 50%.

Diet... She is fed a mixture of Leaf Lettuce, Collard greens, Mustard greens, Turnip greens and occasional dandelion greens. Every meal is roughly the volume of her shell and is supplemented with Timothy hay, calcium powder and Grassland tortoise pellets every day. She also has access to fresh water 24/7

Substrate... a mix of potting soil and reptile safe mulch.

Activity... Because I live in a place where tortoise theft is common she exclusively lives inside. To make up for this she is taken to my public park and walked once a week and gets walked in our backyard every few days.
Again I appreciate any help. View attachment 352274View attachment 352275

Is there any way to correct pyramiding? X

 

[Hydra.1942]

Well from what I've been told and what I've read online, pyramiding can be caused by a plethora of reasons. Anything like diet, heating, space and humidity. From what I've read humidity is a big factor. My tortoise lives inside of a sealed enclosure, I was keeping her humidity at 50 percent, but I've been told it should be at least 80. Does your tortoise live inside or outside?

 

[Tom]

Hello again
I honestly cannot thankyou enough for this information. Every outlet I go to gives me different information and lately I've felt like I'm a bad pet owner. But I will continue to do better. What I'm learning on here is seriously boosting my confidence and for that I am truly grateful. Included with this writing I will post a few pics of her current enclosure.

The Mulch I've mixed with the potting soil is cyphrus. Also the potting
soil I use is a peat moss that contains no fertilizer.
Her heating and uvb sources are within the enclosure itself. Here uvb strip light holds uvb 8t bulb that emits 25 watts. Now the uvb bulb on the other side of her enclosure is called an e26 and has 50 watts.
View attachment 352288View attachment 352289View attachment 352290View attachment 352291 soil I use is a peat moss that contains no fertilizer.
Her heating and uvb sources are within the enclosure itself. Here uvb strip light holds uvb 8t bulb that emits 25 watts. Now the uvb bulb on the other side of her enclosure is called an e26 and has 50 watts.

The T8 bulb at that height is not getting any UV to your tortoise. The e26 is a type of compact florescent. Those are ineffective UV sources and they sometimes burn tortoise eyes. They should not be used.

Peat should never be used as tortoise substrate. I have personally seen it "burn" leopard tortoise plastrons.

I know its a bummer to hear all about everything that is all wrong, but if no one tells you, you can't fix it. Here is the correct lighting and heating info:
There are four elements to heating and lighting:

1. Basking bulb. I use 65 watt incandescent floods from the hardware store. Some people will need bigger, or smaller wattage bulbs. Let your thermometer be your guide. I run them on a timer for about 12 hours and adjust the height to get the correct basking temp under them. I also like to use a flat rock of some sort directly under the bulb. You need to check the temp with a thermometer directly under the bulb and get it to around 95-100F (36-37C).
2. Ambient heat maintenance. I use ceramic heating elements or radiant heat panels set on thermostats to maintain ambient above 80 degrees day and night for tropical species. In most cases you'd only need day heat for a temperate species like Testudo or DT, as long as your house stays above 60F (15-16C) at night. Some people in colder climates or with larger enclosures will need multiple CHEs or RHPs to spread out enough heat.
3. Ambient light. I use LEDs for this purpose. Something in the 5000-6500K color range will look the best. Most bulbs at the store are in the 2500K range and they look yellowish. Strip or screw-in LED bulb types are both fine.
4. UV. If you can get your tortoise outside for an hour 2 or 3 times a week, you won't need indoor UV. In colder climates, get one of the newer HO type fluorescent tubes. Which type will depend on mounting height. 5.0 bulbs make almost no UV. I like the 12% HO bulbs from Arcadia. You need a meter to check this: https://www.solarmeter.com/model65.html A good UV bulb only needs to run for 2-3 hours mid day. You need the basking bulb and the ambient lighting to be on at least 12 hours a day.

 

[AmandaF]

Well from what I've been told and what I've read online, pyramiding can be caused by a plethora of reasons. Anything like diet, heating, space and humidity. From what I've read humidity is a big factor. My tortoise lives inside of a sealed enclosure, I was keeping her humidity at 50 percent, but I've been told it should be at least 80. Does your tortoise live inside or outside?

As I live in the UK, she lives in a vivarium, since I joined the site,I corrected all the things we were told incorrectly. In the summer she goes out as much as possible.

Thank you

Well from what I've been told and what I've read online, pyramiding can be caused by a plethora of reasons. Anything like diet, heating, space and humidity. From what I've read humidity is a big factor. My tortoise lives inside of a sealed enclosure, I was keeping her humidity at 50 percent, but I've been told it should be at least 80. Does your tortoise live inside or outside?

 

[Tom]

Well from what I've been told and what I've read online...

There is the problem...

Pyramiding is caused by growth in conditions that are too dry. That's it. All of those other reasons have nothing to do with it.

 

[AmandaF]

There is the problem...

Pyramiding is caused by growth in conditions that are too dry. That's it. All of those other reasons have nothing to do with it.

Thanks Tom, I am keeping her conditions right, following your asvise on another thread x

 

[Tom]

Thanks Tom, I am keeping her conditions right, following your asvise on another thread x

And how are the results so far?

(This is an unfair, loaded question. I already know the answer... 😝 )

 

[AmandaF]

And how are the results so far?

(This is an unfair, loaded question. I already know the answer... 😝 )

Unfortunately she is still the same, at least I know I have it right. Will it ever change?

 

[Tom]

Unfortunately she is still the same, at least I know I have it right. Will it ever change?

In time, the new growth will come in smoother if you maintain high humidity, good hydration and warm conditions. It can take more than a year in some cases.

 

[AmandaF]

In time, the new growth will come in smoother if you maintain high humidity, good hydration and warm conditions. It can take more than a year in some cases.

Thank you Tom, her fate would have been awful. If it wasn’t for your knowledge & kindness. I will let you know when I see change.
Ernie says thank you as I

amanda x