Leopard's shell not growing

Seba

New Member
Joined
Sep 19, 2021
Messages
4
Location (City and/or State)
London
Hi,
this is my first post here and I hope to get some help as we are quite worried by now that something is wrong with one of our young Leopard's. I have read the Forum's caresheet (from Tom) and I am aware that not everything we provide them is perfect. From the reading, we will probably change the setup of the hide to be more humid and maybe slightly warmer.

We (living in the UK btw) got the two (Henry and Henrietta) from a shop end of May (probably not a "great source"). They were described as 1-year olds, but appeared rather small according to various sizes/weights we found around different forums and sites. Their shell measured around 54x48mm and both weighed 44g.
We have them now for almost four months in an open tortoise table on coco substrate. In their hide there is an edible bedding of hay and flowers (and we will change this now). They take a daily bath and have a terracotta saucer with water. They feed on a mix of dandelion leaves plus some lawn grass from the garden and various shop-bought leaves/salads (corn salad or lambs lettuce, chicory, pak choi, watercress, lettuce). We give alternating vitamin powder and calcium powder sprinkled on the leaves. They always get a mix of things and seem to be rather picky with the food, largely eating their favourites. So far they didn't seem to have problems with digestion.
We have a 100W D3 basking lamp (Mercury vapour UVA UVB lamp) approx 20cm above the substrate. Measured with infrared spot thermometer, the shell reaches around 32°C (90F) when they sit directly under it. The lamp is running 10h a day. Usually they come out of their hide in the morning, warm up under the lamp and then go to the food and feed for a while. Then they tend to sleep around the lamps basking area (but rather not directly under it).
Both of them eat and put on weight (Henry is at 73g, Henrietta at 66g), they have largely constant daily rhythms of sleeping, feeding and activity. They seem to get along well and usually sleep close together or pick the other one up to go to bed.

To the problem. Henrietta's shell has not grown a bit, but her legs and head have and are somewhat oversized now. Yesterday one of her hindlegs got stuck between the upper and lower shell for some minutes and she got extremely agitated and was running around and trying to climb everywhere (which she never did before). We were quite scared to see her like that. We bathed them then and this seemed to relax her and she is behaving normally since. For Henry it is the opposite, his shell started growing soon after we got him and has expanded quite a bit. His head and legs are rather small in comparison to Henrietta.
Are there any known reasons that would prevent the shell from growing? Any other ideas what we could try?

I am happy for any suggestions, thank you
Sebastian
 

Attachments

  • Henrietta.jpg
    Henrietta.jpg
    148.6 KB · Views: 32
  • Henry.jpg
    Henry.jpg
    159.3 KB · Views: 31
  • table.jpg
    table.jpg
    115.8 KB · Views: 31

Sarah2020

Well-Known Member
Tortoise Club
Platinum Tortoise Club
Joined
Mar 16, 2020
Messages
1,604
Location (City and/or State)
London, UK
Are you maintaining a weight log? I weigh weekly best way to know and monitor growth. Tortoise together an become unhappy and effect their growth and well being. Just observe the others behaviour if it grabbing all the food or sitting on it so she can not eat or chasing her away etc ....
 

Seba

New Member
Joined
Sep 19, 2021
Messages
4
Location (City and/or State)
London
Hi Sarah,
we initially kept a weekly weight log and now measure a bit less regularly, but they have always been feeding well and growing steadily. We usually provide more food than they can/do eat and it is spread out in a way that normally both of them have good access to it even if they eat at the same time.
 

Tom

The Dog Trainer
10 Year Member!
Platinum Tortoise Club
Joined
Jan 9, 2010
Messages
63,265
Location (City and/or State)
Southern California
Hi,
this is my first post here and I hope to get some help as we are quite worried by now that something is wrong with one of our young Leopard's. I have read the Forum's caresheet (from Tom) and I am aware that not everything we provide them is perfect. From the reading, we will probably change the setup of the hide to be more humid and maybe slightly warmer.

We (living in the UK btw) got the two (Henry and Henrietta) from a shop end of May (probably not a "great source"). They were described as 1-year olds, but appeared rather small according to various sizes/weights we found around different forums and sites. Their shell measured around 54x48mm and both weighed 44g.
We have them now for almost four months in an open tortoise table on coco substrate. In their hide there is an edible bedding of hay and flowers (and we will change this now). They take a daily bath and have a terracotta saucer with water. They feed on a mix of dandelion leaves plus some lawn grass from the garden and various shop-bought leaves/salads (corn salad or lambs lettuce, chicory, pak choi, watercress, lettuce). We give alternating vitamin powder and calcium powder sprinkled on the leaves. They always get a mix of things and seem to be rather picky with the food, largely eating their favourites. So far they didn't seem to have problems with digestion.
We have a 100W D3 basking lamp (Mercury vapour UVA UVB lamp) approx 20cm above the substrate. Measured with infrared spot thermometer, the shell reaches around 32°C (90F) when they sit directly under it. The lamp is running 10h a day. Usually they come out of their hide in the morning, warm up under the lamp and then go to the food and feed for a while. Then they tend to sleep around the lamps basking area (but rather not directly under it).
Both of them eat and put on weight (Henry is at 73g, Henrietta at 66g), they have largely constant daily rhythms of sleeping, feeding and activity. They seem to get along well and usually sleep close together or pick the other one up to go to bed.

To the problem. Henrietta's shell has not grown a bit, but her legs and head have and are somewhat oversized now. Yesterday one of her hindlegs got stuck between the upper and lower shell for some minutes and she got extremely agitated and was running around and trying to climb everywhere (which she never did before). We were quite scared to see her like that. We bathed them then and this seemed to relax her and she is behaving normally since. For Henry it is the opposite, his shell started growing soon after we got him and has expanded quite a bit. His head and legs are rather small in comparison to Henrietta.
Are there any known reasons that would prevent the shell from growing? Any other ideas what we could try?

I am happy for any suggestions, thank you
Sebastian
Here are the problems I see from what you've described:
1. Open topped tables don't work. You can't maintain the correct temperatures and humidity that way.
2. They should never be in pairs. The chronic stress is bad for both of them.
3. MVBs desiccate the carapace and cause all sorts of weird growth anomalies. You need different bulbs.
4. They need at least a 12 hour photo period. 13 is better.
5. Regular leopard usually don't eat much grass. It would have to be tender young grass and mixed in with the other foods. Likewise with grass hay. Babies don't eat hay. You should remove the hay and replace it with damp substrate.
6. Basking area directly under the bulb should be closer to 36-37C. Don't measure the carapace temperature, instead place a digital thermometer under the bulb and let it cook for an hour. Adjust the height of the bulb to get the basking temp around 36C.

Follow the care sheet for the best chance at getting them back on track. When they are started incorrectly by the breeder and then housed incorrectly for months by the buyer, it makes for a really bad start in life. You need to turn it around ASAP.
 

Seba

New Member
Joined
Sep 19, 2021
Messages
4
Location (City and/or State)
London
Thank you for your suggestions Tom.
Here are the problems I see from what you've described:
1. Open topped tables don't work. You can't maintain the correct temperatures and humidity that way.
I will consider to construct something that will help to maintain better humidity, which I think is indeed not great right now, especially when the Coco substrate becomes more dry with time.
2. They should never be in pairs. The chronic stress is bad for both of them.
We didn't know this and I think there are also different opinions here about young leopard's in pairs. Can't change this right now this moment.

3. MVBs desiccate the carapace and cause all sorts of weird growth anomalies. You need different bulbs.
What is the recommended type of UV lamp then? In the care sheet from Neal in this forum it still refers to them and your instructions don't specify what to use. On the same thought, if basking lamp and UV source are separate, how close should you put them together, so that they get enough of both heat and UV?
4. They need at least a 12 hour photo period. 13 is better.
I have turned up the time switch.
5. Regular leopard usually don't eat much grass. It would have to be tender young grass and mixed in with the other foods. Likewise with grass hay. Babies don't eat hay. You should remove the hay and replace it with damp substrate.
We have replaced the hay now and yes they have never eaten it. The grass from the garden is indeed very fine and they hardly eat it. Will leave it out.
6. Basking area directly under the bulb should be closer to 36-37C. Don't measure the carapace temperature, instead place a digital thermometer under the bulb and let it cook for an hour. Adjust the height of the bulb to get the basking temp around 36C.
I will get it down. Though, if the MVB desiccates the carapace then this wouldn't be a great idea now?!
Follow the care sheet for the best chance at getting them back on track. When they are started incorrectly by the breeder and then housed incorrectly for months by the buyer, it makes for a really bad start in life. You need to turn it around ASAP.

When you say care sheet you refer to your guide 2.0?

Thx again.
 

Tom

The Dog Trainer
10 Year Member!
Platinum Tortoise Club
Joined
Jan 9, 2010
Messages
63,265
Location (City and/or State)
Southern California
Thank you for your suggestions Tom.

I will consider to construct something that will help to maintain better humidity, which I think is indeed not great right now, especially when the Coco substrate becomes more dry with time.

We didn't know this and I think there are also different opinions here about young leopard's in pairs. Can't change this right now this moment.


What is the recommended type of UV lamp then? In the care sheet from Neal in this forum it still refers to them and your instructions don't specify what to use. On the same thought, if basking lamp and UV source are separate, how close should you put them together, so that they get enough of both heat and UV?

I have turned up the time switch.

We have replaced the hay now and yes they have never eaten it. The grass from the garden is indeed very fine and they hardly eat it. Will leave it out.

I will get it down. Though, if the MVB desiccates the carapace then this wouldn't be a great idea now?!


When you say care sheet you refer to your guide 2.0?

Thx again.
Here is the current care sheet:
 

Seba

New Member
Joined
Sep 19, 2021
Messages
4
Location (City and/or State)
London
I want to ask a follow-up, regarding lighting. I want to replace the MVB with a split system. I am thinking of getting the Arcadia 75W basking flood light (seen several times recommended here) and adjust the height in the enclosure to get the right basking temp.

I am a bit lost with the UV though. I understand that the only recommended type are the fluorescent UV tubes, which come in different strengths and need to be adjusted to the right height to get the right amount of UV exposure. According to the Arcadia Lighting Guide, a T8 12% (D3+ Desert) or T5 6% (D3 Forest) at 30-40cm height are recommended for Leopard's (I don't want to have a T5 12% at this point as I don't want to hang it up so high at this time). Now when I compare the UVI index they show on their own website, the Forest lamp will be at UVI 1-2 and the T8 Desert at 3-4, so quite a difference. Does that mean that the forest lamp would need to cover a larger area or be turned on for longer? What are generally the recommendations here (It has been said several times in the forum that a few times a week a few hours actual sun is sufficient, suggesting that shorter periods of higher intensity fulfill the need for UVB)?

Thanks again for the help.
 

New Posts

Top