Leopards vs Sulacatas

[shiwolfe]

Hi everyone, new here (already visited intros), I don't have a tortoise yet and might not get one for a year or so as I'm moving to New Mexico around that time, but I'm trying to learn as much as possible and get ready ahead of time.

I've been browsing forums for a couple days now and have learned a ton and have to say people here are very helpful and kinder to new-comers than I've seen on other forums!

My question is for those who own (or have owned) both sulcatas and leopards, I'm wondering how they differ. Specifically I've read that the Leopards are smaller (yet still big) and a bit less destructive, but do the Leopards have friendly personalities like the sulcatas? I know Tom's opinion from reading through forums and his and others' has me leaning more toward the Leopards since they seem like they'd be easier to manage and maintain (less work reinforcing the yard and easier to carry if I need to, etc), but I just want to get some more input before I decide.

Thanks so much!

 

[ALDABRAMAN]

If I had to choose between those two, I would choose the leopard. I have had both along time ago. Both did great, however the sulcata became agressive and ramed everything!

 

[shiwolfe]

Thanks for replying! That's kind of what I'm thinking, I'm single so it's unlikely I'll have the ability to reinforce the fencing a sulcata would need in the yard, not to mention hefting around a huge guy when necessary. The leopard seems more manageable. How do you think they compare personality wise?

 

[ALDABRAMAN]

Well, my sulcata was for sure more bold and active. The leopard was very friendly and seemed more relaxed. Both were so different and it was in the 80's that I had them. Leopards get good size also, not near as big as sulcatas. It will be interesting to hear others when they post their opinions. That is one of the great things about this forum is the member base is so large and diverse which allows for so many varied thoughts and opinions. I will also add that in our aldabras, each have such different personalities and character that not one are the same. Each have such vast differences that is hard to characterize them as a species having one typical similar personality trait. One example is we have two holdbacks from 2008 that are from the same clutch. One is friendly and bold and the other is shy and nerveous. You will get many opinions, I would choose the leopard.

 

[shiwolfe]

Thanks AldabraMan, I really appreciate your input. I've pretty much made up my mind for a tortoise, like you said just wanted to see some different opinions in case there's something I hadn't thought of yet. Hopefully I'll win the lottery on my guy/gal when I get him/her in the personality department lol Makes you wonder what is involved in setting their personalities ie. nature vs. nurture, etc. Considering I've heard from others as well that clutch mates have very different personalities they're likely born that way. Very interesting.

 

[onarock]

Once again Greg youve proven to be the constant voice of reason and sanity...

Well, my sulcata was for sure more bold and active. The leopard was very friendly and seemed more relaxed. Both were so different and it was in the 80's that I had them. Leopards get good size also, not near as big as sulcatas. It will be interesting to hear others when they post their opinions. That is one of the great things about this forum is the member base is so large and diverse which allows for so many varied thoughts and opinions. I will also add that in our aldabras, each have such different personalities and character that not one are the same. Each have such vast differences that is hard to characterize them as a species having one typical similar personality trait. One example is we have two holdbacks from 2008 that are from the same clutch. One is friendly and bold and the other is shy and nerveous. You will get many opinions, I would choose the leopard.

 

[shiwolfe]

Sorry just noticed I left out *leopard* tortoise in my post above, that's what I'm pretty much decided on, barring some convincing argument otherwise which I'm doubting I'll find Still very much interested in hearing the differences however!

 

[DeanS]

Once you brought up destructiveness...you also ruled out the sulcata. While they are easily the most 'personable'...they can be VERY destructive...and not just to your yard, but some will also go after other animals...with unpleasant results! For you...the leopard seems the logical choice...Keep us posted!

 

[Yvonne G]

Each tortoise, no matter what specie, has its own personality. I have 1.2 babcocks and they are all so shy as to just sit there if they see me, all withdrawn into their shells. The only time I can see them in action is if I peek around the corner and don't let them see me. However, others on the forum who also have babcocks tell a totally different story.

I also have 0.0.2 pardalis. They are not just "pretty rocks," they are "heading for the hills" whenever they see me. Just get away...that's all they have on their mind when I come into view. I have a feeling that as they get bigger and bolder, they will have a bit more personality than my babcocks.

But, my way of tortoise keeping is probably different than most. I don't interact with my tortoises. I have them because I love watching them, not because I want to handle them and play with them. So none of my tortoises sees me as a benevolent monster, just a monster.

No matter what kind of tortoise you get, because it will be your only tortoise, it will more than likely become people-friendly and will have the personality that you are looking for. Gentle handling, lots of good food and he will come to know you and appreciate you.

 

[ALDABRAMAN]

Once again Greg youve proven to be the constant voice of reason and sanity...

Well, my sulcata was for sure more bold and active. The leopard was very friendly and seemed more relaxed. Both were so different and it was in the 80's that I had them. Leopards get good size also, not near as big as sulcatas. It will be interesting to hear others when they post their opinions. That is one of the great things about this forum is the member base is so large and diverse which allows for so many varied thoughts and opinions. I will also add that in our aldabras, each have such different personalities and character that not one are the same. Each have such vast differences that is hard to characterize them as a species having one typical similar personality trait. One example is we have two holdbacks from 2008 that are from the same clutch. One is friendly and bold and the other is shy and nerveous. You will get many opinions, I would choose the leopard.

That is funny, just common sense to me, escpecially for being a numbers guy, LOL. Thanks Paul.

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Once you brought up destructiveness...you also ruled out the sulcata. While they are easily the most 'personable'...they can be VERY destructive...and not just to your yard, but some will also go after other animals...with unpleasant results! For you...the leopard seems the logical choice...Keep us posted!

That is another great point, we have gotten several larger sulcata tortoises for rehoming due to them destroying the yard. And in one case the tortoise dug under the house porch foundation and caused it to collapse on one side. The tort was ok, however the owner was way upset!

 

[shiwolfe]

Okay pretty much all I'm hearing is that a Sulcata is not for me! It is frightening how many people buy them (especially as adorable little hatchlings) on impulse. I was looking at one site online that allowed users to leave their comments and people thought theirs were so cute they were ordering two more! Pretty clear how that situation was going to turn out. Sadly the rescues that I looked at don't have many sulcatas (or leopards for that matter) available and it's pretty doubtful that all these people are keeping them for their entire lives! Seems like some responsibility in breeding is in order, but as long as there is a market it's not going to happen. You may say I'm a dreamer...

 

[ALDABRAMAN]

Okay pretty much all I'm hearing is that a Sulcata is not for me! It is frightening how many people buy them (especially as adorable little hatchlings) on impulse. I was looking at one site online that allowed users to leave their comments and people thought theirs were so cute they were ordering two more! Pretty clear how that situation was going to turn out. Sadly the rescues that I looked at don't have many sulcatas (or leopards for that matter) available and it's pretty doubtful that all these people are keeping them for their entire lives! Seems like some responsibility in breeding is in order, but as long as there is a market it's not going to happen. You may say I'm a dreamer...

People turn them loose here in SW Florida. We have gotten several that were picked up on the roadsides wondering about. Breeders will continue to produce them in large numbers as long as the demand is there. I have seen hatchling sulcatas for $25 at the shows on the last day.

 

[shiwolfe]

It's tragic and irresponsible, poor Florida isn't going to have any native species left at the rate people are dumping their pets out there! And I would imagine a $25 hatchling is probably worth about that, poor things. Makes me wonder if it would be better to have to have some type of permit or something to be able to own one. As much as I hate dealing with red tape, maybe it would be worth it for the lives of these animals!

 

[Tom]

Okay pretty much all I'm hearing is that a Sulcata is not for me! It is frightening how many people buy them (especially as adorable little hatchlings) on impulse. I was looking at one site online that allowed users to leave their comments and people thought theirs were so cute they were ordering two more! Pretty clear how that situation was going to turn out. Sadly the rescues that I looked at don't have many sulcatas (or leopards for that matter) available and it's pretty doubtful that all these people are keeping them for their entire lives! Seems like some responsibility in breeding is in order, but as long as there is a market it's not going to happen. You may say I'm a dreamer...

I was going to leave this thread alone so as not to start another big war about tortoise personalities, but now you've taken it in a totally different direction. It seems to me from the above that you think that lots of the tortoises sold out there die because the rescues aren't full of them. Your assumptions about people buying more because they like the ones they have, and "how that situation was going turn out" are pretty bleak too. I know tons of people that have sulcatas and love them. Until I joined this forum I had never even heard of a single one dying from any cause. When the hatchlings here on the forum don't make it, we can always trace it back to chronic dehydration at the breeders/sellers place. What I am saying is that not nearly as many die as you seem to think and lots of people have them and keep them for decades. In fact they are highly desirable. On the rare occasion that one shows up in an animal shelter, it is snapped up in a matter of hours most of the time. Most (not all) rescues tend to have more on hand because they make it very hard to adopt them in my opinion. People still sell older ones for pretty good sums of money. The cheapest I've ever seen babies at a show was $60 here in CA. The pet shops still sell the for $100 or more. I'm not sure what the price has to do with anything, but thought I'd pass that on since it was discussed earlier. Anyhow, you seem to be making some very negative assumptions, based on I don't know what. The reality that I see and experience everyday with my sulcatas, my friend's sulcatas, my family member's sulcatas, my neighbor's sulcatas, my acquaintances' sulcatas, my business associates' sulcatas and all the forum member's sulcatas here on TFO, is really quite different than what you have in your mind. Things are usually very positive in the sulcata world. I hope this gives you some new perspective to ponder. I don't know where you heard the other side of the story, but now you have my side too. More government red tape will not solve any problem, and as far as sulcatas go, I don't see a problem that needs to be solved in the first place.

Having said all of that, given what you've said about size and handleablity, it seems to me like a leopard will suit you much better. However, I don't think any tortoise has a better personality than a sulcata, generally speaking.

 

[shiwolfe]

I'm sorry that you took offense to my statements, I hadn't meant those words toward responsible owners. I feel safe in saying that at the very least hundreds if not thousands of sulcata hatchlings are sold to homes where they will not receive proper care. I in no way meant to say that all sulcata owners are irresponsible or that they are inappropriate pets for all or that they should not be had as pets. I'm saying that the majority of the general population who takes on a sulcata is ill equipped to care for them. I meant the permit thing in the 'people should have a license to be parents' kind of way. Again, I'm sorry you took offense but not sorry for my words as I very much meant them.

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Also when I stated earlier that I read your opinion on Leopards I hadn't meant that in a way that I wanted you to be excluded from this topic, as I said it was your opinion of the Leopard in the first place that piqued my interest. If you have more to say in regards to Leopards I would love to hear it.

 

[Tom]

I'm sorry that you took offense to my statements, I hadn't meant those words toward responsible owners. I feel safe in saying that at the very least hundreds if not thousands of sulcata hatchlings are sold to homes where they will not receive proper care. I in no way meant to say that all sulcata owners are irresponsible or that they are inappropriate pets for all or that they should not be had as pets. I'm saying that the majority of the general population who takes on a sulcata is ill equipped to care for them. I meant the permit thing in the 'people should have a license to be parents' kind of way. Again, I'm sorry you took offense but not sorry for my words as I very much meant them.

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Also when I stated earlier that I read your opinion on Leopards I hadn't meant that in a way that I wanted you to be excluded from this topic, as I said it was your opinion of the Leopard in the first place that piqued my interest. If you have more to say in regards to Leopards I would love to hear it.

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No no. No apology necessary. I'm not offended in the least. I did not think you were referring to one class of keepers or another. I'm just trying to tell you that I think your rather bleak outlook on the state of sulcata care is unfounded and incorrect. Surely a certain percentage of any group of animals is not cared for properly. Sheesh, just looks at dogs, horses or any number of others. What I'm trying to say is that I think sulcatas are as well cared for, on the whole, as any other species of tortoise and much better than most animals in general. I say this based on my personal experience with hundreds of them and their owners. Mostly here in Southern CA, but also all over the country. As you can tell, I like to talk torts, and since I travel so much for business, I get to see torts all over the world. Really, from what I've seen, the poor CA Desert tortoise is the most neglected or improperly cared for tortoise species in the world. A lot of people just leave these in their back yard with no heat, a poor diet and no way to burrow and escape the cold of winter. People near the beach would bring us sick ones all the time. From what I've seen, ignorance abounds with the CDT. Anyway, I guess that's yet another topic.

Leopards are a great tortoise. Both types. I think you probably already know that I think the Gpp have a better personality. That's been my experience with them and others see it differently. I've hatched out 7 little babcocki this year, and they are just night and day from when my little Gpp were first hatched. In my opinion the Gpp are much more sulcata-like in their personality.

 

[shiwolfe]

I've already decided a sulcata is not right for me personally but I'm sure others can benefit from the link as well

Tom I hope the situation isn't as bleak at I can imagine, but if you see how many are readily available online and take into consideration the number of hatchlings from one clutch, there's a potential for a huge amount of baby sulcatas being pumped out into the market each year. I still feel the majority (or at least even a good portion) are unprepared for the requirements of raising an adult sulcata (not to mention the work in properly caring for a hatchling).

I can imagine if since you travel and make a lot of aquaintences here and other places you must meet incredible tortoise owners. That doesn't however give an overall picture of what the average sulcata (tortoise in general) owner is. I'm not trying to be especially negative and pessimistic, just realistic (not one of my favorite things to do as anyone who knows me well can tell you, I prefer happy thoughts)

I agree dogs and cats and other animals are also very often not being treated like they should be, as well as snakes, lizards, etc. A big part of the responsibility goes to those selling the animals, the biggest share of course goes to the owners themselves.

On that depressing note, I'm quite certain I want a leopard tortoise, but only when the appropriate situation presents itself. I'll more than likely be waiting until next year when I'm all settled in New Mexico. Can't wait

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Oh and you've convinced me to try the Gpp's when the time comes. Their spots are just the icing on the cake

 

[Neal]

Go with the leopard, it seems like that will be a better starter tortoise for you.

When deciding between Gpb and Gpp, it would be smart to base your decision solely on size rather than personality or hardiness as size is the only difference between the two (besides cost) that is consistent. The Gpp will typically grow larger than Gpb in almost all cases, (at least of the ones you will find in the states).

It's often said that Pardalis are the more cold hardy or just hardier in general, and they have more outgoing personalities. These points are all subjective though, and from what I have found are not based on anything at all. The fact is you are just as likely to find a hardy outgoing Gpb as a hardy outgoing Gpp.

 

[shiwolfe]

Thanks Neal, I'm actually good with the bigger size as well and the cold hardy would probably come in handy in New Mexico from time to time I would imagine. I really appreciate everyone's input!
Honestly I almost want to try the Gpp vs Gpb experiment myself. Tom makes such a passionate case that I'm curious to see how different they would turn out. Doubt I will though lol

 

[Neal]

I think it's brilliant that you want to try to compare the two yourself. That's what I did, so far the Gpb are the more cold tollerant and personable ones. This seems consistent with a lot of other hobbyists I deal with. Again, it's all subjective, the only way to find out is to expose large numbers of each type to weather extremes and see who comes out on top...not going to happen, so go with both and let us know your experiences.