Lethargy :(( help dt hatchling

[marbalboy]

I need your help. Hatchling Petunia was doing so so well. Now It is not.
Here is the problem:
Very lethargic, just lays listlessly under basking area and moves slowly. Has really lost the voracious appetite, although took a few bites when we weren’t watching. and still eats the good stuff, like some pumpkin or the most-loved erodium cicutarum but not with fervor. Has not gained weight over a week, but I’ve just noticed the lethargy in the last two days (and I am quite attentive).
Yesterday, took a very large poop in the bath.

Here are some possibilities/important details:

-for about a week before this lethargy, it was extremely …. Agitated isn’t quite the right word? It was always trying to get out and pacing . Which hasn’t happened in months because it was accustomed to its home.
-did not Brumate
-I recently finished the outdoor enclosure. It has been spending between 45 minutes-an hour a Day (in addition to the bath). . In there, it is trying to go after the small amount of perlite I accidentally released in there. As in tried to eat it.

And finally. I realized that for the last couple of days I was giving it TOO MUCH kale and mustard, that’s been rectified.

I’m so worried. Any other ideas and also next steps? Is it stones? Impacted? 😥

 

[marbalboy]

It seems like in order to get it to eat, I have to give it something it loves (usually waking it up) and then that kick starts its appetite, but then it doesn’t eat very much.

 

[wellington]

What are the temps? All over, basking, night?
How old/big?
Humidity?
Type of bulbs?
Type of heating?
How often do you soak?
Temps should be 80 all over, 95-100 basking.
While not doing well, keep temps day and night at 80.

 

[Tom]

I need your help. Hatchling Petunia was doing so so well. Now It is not.
Here is the problem:
Very lethargic, just lays listlessly under basking area and moves slowly. Has really lost the voracious appetite, although took a few bites when we weren’t watching. and still eats the good stuff, like some pumpkin or the most-loved erodium cicutarum but not with fervor. Has not gained weight over a week, but I’ve just noticed the lethargy in the last two days (and I am quite attentive).
Yesterday, took a very large poop in the bath.

Here are some possibilities/important details:

-for about a week before this lethargy, it was extremely …. Agitated isn’t quite the right word? It was always trying to get out and pacing . Which hasn’t happened in months because it was accustomed to its home.
-did not Brumate
-I recently finished the outdoor enclosure. It has been spending between 45 minutes-an hour a Day (in addition to the bath). . In there, it is trying to go after the small amount of perlite I accidentally released in there. As in tried to eat it.

And finally. I realized that for the last couple of days I was giving it TOO MUCH kale and mustard, that’s been rectified.

I’m so worried. Any other ideas and also next steps? Is it stones? Impacted? 😥

What are the four temperatures in the indoor enclosure?
What type of bulbs are you using?
What type of UV bulb? How close is it to the tortoise?
What has been the temperature when the tortoise is outside?
If the tortoise has had access to perlite and eaten any, that could do it. It is deadly to them, but it takes a long time to kill them.

 

[marbalboy]

What are the four temperatures in the indoor enclosure?
What type of bulbs are you using?
What type of UV bulb? How close is it to the tortoise?
What has been the temperature when the tortoise is outside?
If the tortoise has had access to perlite and eaten any, that could do it. It is deadly to them, but it takes a long time to kill them.

Could one or two pieces of perlite do it? It’s still pooping and eating some. And a long time like how long ?

It’s probable been a little chilly outside but I made sure it was sunny and I don’t know if many of the trips were longer then an hour. Or much longer.
Today in the inside house I kept the temps a bit warmer than they have been. The light just went off for the night.

I think the temperatures have been way cooler than i thought they were. All day it listed right under the basking spot. And instead of sleeping in its regular burrow, it opted for the flower pot it slept in as a tiny tortoise that’s at surface level and right under the covered area next to the basking area (so I’d say the hottest protected part of the enclosure m


So does this sound like it’s too cold lot both you and @wellington ? Is that why you’re asking me these things. ?

It gets a soak every single day.

As for temperatures, my temp gauges are reading hotter than the temp gun is indicating. Below s comparison (so gun taken in same spot as gauge
Gauges 73 75 83 90
Gun. 73 73 78 83.
Probe, which is closest to the gauge reading 83 is indicating 77

I’ll come back with the light types and arrangement shortly.

Thank you

 

[Tom]

Could one or two pieces of perlite do it? It’s still pooping and eating some. And a long time like how long ?

It breaks down into a weird gray sandy sludge and it lines their intestinal tract. It doesn't pass for some reason and it prevents them from digesting their food. There are many factors that determine how much sticks, how much of the intestinal tract is covered and how long it takes them to succumb.

I bought 20 babies that had hatched on perlite. A third of them were seemingly fine. Another third survived, but just didn't do very well compared to my own hatchlings that were right next to them in a divided enclosure. The final third limped along, not growing in spite of eating and most of them survived for several months. Fearing a disease outbreak, I had my vet necropsy two of the failing babies. A gray sandy sludge coated their intestinal tract. It was broken down perlite from their incubation chamber. They had been living on orchid bark with me, and on hay for a short time with the breeder and had never been exposed to any sand or dirt outside.

It’s probable been a little chilly outside but I made sure it was sunny and I don’t know if many of the trips were longer then an hour....

Its cold in Vegas this time of year. Chilling a baby could cause what you are seeing.

I think the temperatures have been way cooler than i thought they were.

This is bad, especially for a baby, and especially since you didn't choose to brumate. Its important to keep them nice and warm when not brumating.

So does this sound like it’s too cold lot both you and @wellington ? Is that why you’re asking me these things. ?

Yes it does. We are asking you for these other details to try and eliminate possibilities of your problem. Using the wrong UV lights or the wrong substrate can also cause issues like this. The answers to the other questions can help us figure out what is wrong and possibly save the tortoise.

 

[marbalboy]

It breaks down into a weird gray sandy sludge and it lines their intestinal tract. It doesn't pass for some reason and it prevents them from digesting their food. There are many factors that determine how much sticks, how much of the intestinal tract is covered and how long it takes them to succumb.

I bought 20 babies that had hatched on perlite. A third of them were seemingly fine. Another third survived, but just didn't do very well compared to my own hatchlings that were right next to them in a divided enclosure. The final third limped along, not growing in spite of eating and most of them survived for several months. Fearing a disease outbreak, I had my vet necropsy two of the failing babies. A gray sandy sludge coated their intestinal tract. It was broken down perlite from their incubation chamber. They had been living on orchid bark with me, and on hay for a short time with the breeder and had never been exposed to any sand or dirt outside.


Its cold in Vegas this time of year. Chilling a baby could cause what you are seeing.


This is bad, especially for a baby, and especially since you didn't choose to brumate. Its important to keep them nice and warm when not brumating.


Yes it does. We are asking you for these other details to try and eliminate possibilities of your problem. Using the wrong UV lights or the wrong substrate can also cause issues like this. The answers to the other questions can help us figure out what is wrong and possibly save the tortoise.

All bulbs are at screen ceiling level. All “holes” where the light fixture does not cover have, depending on where they are situated, a layer of foil ir packing insulation on top (outside) of the enclosure.



0815 to 2100 heat turns on below 89 degrees and off at 94

2100 to 0815 it turns on below 77 and off at 80. All of these temperatures were just increased three degrees like two days agi



Pink- Full spectrum bulb for light only; 840 lumen 10.5w.

Purple - mercury 10 uv bulb

Green - 120v ceramic heater


I really hesitate to say this but today it was a brand new tortoise. Eating like a monster (not necessarily a large amount.. y’all know how polite they are when they eat haha), exploring, giving me the stink eye, bath yoga, etc. I hope I just messed up there temperatures. Thinking of adding another bulb. What do y’all think of the bulb set up?

It’s also been really eating s lot of calcium lately. I don’t know what facts to give y’all because they don’t know what I’ll end up being important.!

 

[marbalboy]

It breaks down into a weird gray sandy sludge and it lines their intestinal tract. It doesn't pass for some reason and it prevents them from digesting their food. There are many factors that determine how much sticks, how much of the intestinal tract is covered and how long it takes them to succumb.

I bought 20 babies that had hatched on perlite. A third of them were seemingly fine. Another third survived, but just didn't do very well compared to my own hatchlings that were right next to them in a divided enclosure. The final third limped along, not growing in spite of eating and most of them survived for several months. Fearing a disease outbreak, I had my vet necropsy two of the failing babies. A gray sandy sludge coated their intestinal tract. It was broken down perlite from their incubation chamber. They had been living on orchid bark with me, and on hay for a short time with the breeder and had never been exposed to any sand or dirt outside.


Its cold in Vegas this time of year. Chilling a baby could cause what you are seeing.


This is bad, especially for a baby, and especially since you didn't choose to brumate. Its important to keep them nice and warm when not brumating.


Yes it does. We are asking you for these other details to try and eliminate possibilities of your problem. Using the wrong UV lights or the wrong substrate can also cause issues like this. The answers to the other questions can help us figure out what is wrong and possibly save the tortoise.

When you say this is bad do you mean that it is too late? Or that it’s possibly too late?

That’s very sad to hear about the poor hatching conditions of those twenty babies.

 

[Tom]

View attachment 367215

All bulbs are at screen ceiling level. All “holes” where the light fixture does not cover have, depending on where they are situated, a layer of foil ir packing insulation on top (outside) of the enclosure.



0815 to 2100 heat turns on below 89 degrees and off at 94

2100 to 0815 it turns on below 77 and off at 80. All of these temperatures were just increased three degrees like two days agi



Pink- Full spectrum bulb for light only; 840 lumen 10.5w.

Purple - mercury 10 uv bulb

Green - 120v ceramic heater


I really hesitate to say this but today it was a brand new tortoise. Eating like a monster (not necessarily a large amount.. y’all know how polite they are when they eat haha), exploring, giving me the stink eye, bath yoga, etc. I hope I just messed up there temperatures. Thinking of adding another bulb. What do y’all think of the bulb set up?

It’s also been really eating s lot of calcium lately. I don’t know what facts to give y’all because they don’t know what I’ll end up being important.!

What type of bulb is the pink one? Is that an LED?

What is a mercury 10? Is that a mercury vapor bulb? What wattage and how close to the tortoise is it? Those bulbs are not reliable, sometimes dangerous, and they cause pyramiding. They should not be used over tortoises.

The green one, CHE set on a thermostat, should be over the middle to maintain ambient temperatures in the whole enclosure.

The heat lamp should be to one side or the other so that there is a temperature gradient.

The ambient lighting can be where ever it will fit, but I generally try to make it near the middle favoring toward the heat lamp.

I think 89-94 is too hot for a DT. That would be a great day time temp for a sulcata, but not a temperate species. 75-80 degrees is a good ambient for a DT with a 95-100 degree basking area directly below the bulb, and down to 70ish at night.

What size is the enclosure and what substrate is in it? Can we get a picture of the enclosure and tortoise?

 

[marbalboy]

What type of bulb is the pink one? Is that an LED?

What is a mercury 10? Is that a mercury vapor bulb? What wattage and how close to the tortoise is it? Those bulbs are not reliable, sometimes dangerous, and they cause pyramiding. They should not be used over tortoises.

The green one, CHE set on a thermostat, should be over the middle to maintain ambient temperatures in the whole enclosure.

The heat lamp should be to one side or the other so that there is a temperature gradient.

The ambient lighting can be where ever it will fit, but I generally try to make it near the middle favoring toward the heat lamp.

I think 89-94 is too hot for a DT. That would be a great day time temp for a sulcata, but not a temperate species. 75-80 degrees is a good ambient for a DT with a 95-100 degree basking area directly below the bulb, and down to 70ish at night.

What size is the enclosure and what substrate is in it? Can we get a picture of the enclosure and tortoise?

I wrote out the below, and I’m worried it sounds like I’m being defensive. I’m definitely not, and I appreciate the advice thst I am receiving from you. With that….



So with those 89 and 94 temps… the thermostat monitor is fairly close to the hot basking area. So it’s a little on the toastier side. The heat bulb is usually on, because it is rarely exceeding 89, and then the 94 is just precautionary because that’s getting pretty hot. I also had just bumped up these temps because petunia wasn’t feeling well.



Ok on the light suggestions. I just got a new light stand and so it’ll be easy and good to have a new light arrangement, so long as I know what I am doing more than before. What should i use instead of the mercury bulb? The wattage is 10. It’s around 10 inches from the tortoise top.



The pink is a Full spectrum bulb for light only; 840 lumen 10.5w.



What’s the CHE? Is that the ceramic heat bulb? Ceramic heat emitter maybe?



Sounds like i need to go way lower in my nighttime temperatures.



The substrate needs a full replacement (hopefully this weekend). The enclosure is a bit of a mess right now. I warned petunia it was going to be shown but alas torts procrastinate. The substrate is coir and orchid bark and reptibark.



As far as the size is concerned…well… I didn’t exactly expect tort to quadruple in size since November… but I’m trying to provide climbing opportunities as well to increase surface area plus it’s got the bigger outdoor enclosure to have temporary supervised outside time.

When will it be time to consider a permanent outdoor enclosure? I REALLY do not want to make/buy/setup another bigger indoor enclosure. Tort needs what it needs, but if possible, I’d like to avoid this