moss peat as substrate

[Crazy1]

Guys, what should I change it to? Come on, I did my research, talked to the vet who is actually specialized in reptiles... This is the best choice I have. Soil is frozen outside so I can't go and dig some out I will keep and eye on them, but this is the best option I have. It says it is safe for tortoises and for next 2 months at least it is the best I can get them.

Edita

Thanks everybody again... but for some time I will stay with this... if somebody wants to know why read more :/

I am a biologist and I know what is in news papers. I wouldn't let any animal or live being sleep or live in that. I am not a newbie. The fact I don't have many posts doesn't mean I have no idea of anything so please... and my vet is a zoo vet and also keeper of reptiles. I know we all want best for our "kids" but mine was just out of antibiotics for no good reason. And by that I mean somebody is home at least 6h of their wake up time, taking care of them, and I mean listen to their breathing, taking care of their eyes, nose... and she got sick, the older one-kreso didn't but she did. you can say now taking care of them doesn't mean anything... but my conditions were like from the book and you all know that doesn't have to mean anything. But my symptoms were not enough for any advice....I wrote few posts on sneezing and I got no reply and my kid ended up on medications cause she had problem breathing. So we can all keep tortoises but doc is a doc and since we changed the soil to that bark which is so wrong she got a lot of weight and honestly I had to give her oral antibiotics cause she was too small for injections.
I feel like a mom, I adore them and you all know we will do our best. I will keep an eye on their eyes more than usually which I assure you is everyday. I will take even more care. But for now I need to see her breathing is ok, she is not sneezing and she is gaining weight.
To be melodramatic I will say it is easy to say do this or that... I didn't sleep for 2weeks cause I was hearing her sneeze at night and nobody could tell me why.. she ate normaly, moved... check the post if you want. So now, she is not sneezing, she is better and I just don't want to keep her in a box until that "soil" comes cause I live in a country where pine bark for tortoises is the best you can get (and Hermanni are native here).

Thanks everybody again, and I apologize if I was rude

Hi Edita, I have been following this thread. Danny did answer your thread on sneezing. It is of course up to you as a tort owner whether to use any specific substrate, heat rock, lamp, whatever. Several members have shared with you their knowledge and thoughts regarding substrates. I am sure every one of us wishes you and your little one well. I am sorry she ended up ill but am happy she is recovering; And yes I agree with most of the people on the forum who have answered this thread I do not use anything that contains Pine, Douglas Fir or Cedar. I know some people swear by the use of dried pine (state the oils are out of it and it is safe). I personally would not chance it even if my vet (and yes he is a Tortoise vet and I trust him) told me it was OK. There are always other solutions. And many have been suggested in this thread. I don't think you are trying to be rude, I think you are taking an easy route and only time will tell if it is best for your torts. I personally have even been out in the pouring rain digging dirt and drying it in my oven to provide a good substrate. But again this is your choice and from your response you obviously only want what is best for your torts and I have to respect that. I wish you and your torts only the best.

 

[Edita]

I read all the treads again and I realized you treat all the tortoises the same about like what bothers one has to bother the other. I did some research and native range of Testudo hermanni and geobotanical range of Pines overlap and there for it is normal/natural for testudo tortoises to encounter Pines all over their natural habitat. Also I did some research with reptile specialist here and they didn't find Testudo with problems cause of Pine bark.
Did anybody have actual problems with them?
So yes, I am staying with pine bark for now. I will keep you informed about status. I don't want to say some tortoises might have problems with it (or certainly) but I am just saying Testudo doesn't have to be putt into the same group with them.

Edita

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And about sneezing reply- you kind of underestimate "newbies". She was on vitamins. Extra since she started sneezing, Vit C being the first added to the list.

 

[HermanniChris]

It has in fact been proven that various members of the Testudo group can and do have problems related to pine and even more so with cedar. Their natural habitat really does not have much to do with this. We keep these animals in contained and restricted quarters. In the wild a tortoise is not forced to stay on one particular substrate. If it wants to move off the pine into leaves, or create scrapes under a shrub or move onto a rocky area it can. In a wooden box with pine as the main bedding it has no escape so yes it can affect the animal without a doubt. Testudo hermanni in their native range may occupy several different areas such as Medterranean oak forest, scrub land, rocky hill-sides, open fields, and even farm land. They are of course a rather hardy and adaptive species but do fall victim to problems associated with poor husbandry. Now I am by no means saying you are caring for your tortoises poorly, I can tell you care for them very much, however we have warned you about the dangers concerning this type of substrate and that is the point of these forums. To simply inform. I have kept T. hermanni on cypress, pine and other types of bark and after a long period the tortoises all developed eye problems and wheezed at a considerable volume. One particular young animal could be heard wheezing from another room. That was about a decade ago and since, any tortoises in my care have all been kept on the other indoor substrates recommended with access to naturalistic pens in summer.

As we've said, just watch them closely and if you notice a change, then it is time to switch to a new bedding no matter what it takes to obtain it. Do I think your tortoises are going to suddenly die? No not at all, but the problem affiliated with these animals is that many times we do not realize something is wrong until it is way too late. The point is to not let it get to that point.

Again, just trying to help because it is real life experience and also extensive research that allows us to come up with what is good and bad for our tortoises.

 

[Kristina]

I read all the treads again and I realized you treat all the tortoises the same about like what bothers one has to bother the other.
Edita

And about sneezing reply- you kind of underestimate "newbies". She was on vitamins. Extra since she started sneezing, Vit C being the first added to the list.

So, you read every thread on this forum and concluded that we care for all species the same?

And as for underestimating newbies, I am sorry, but if you do not want help or opinions, why are you asking for it? If you already knew that you were going to use pine bark and not "moss peat," then why did you ask about it in the first place? If you were not going to listen to our opinions, why ask them and then get defensive when we do not agree with you?

We have no idea how experienced a newbie is. We are trying to HELP and you are being, in my opinion, a bit ridiculus about it. Ever stopped to think that we might have your "kids" best interest in mind? No, you just think we are picking at you. Get over yourself, please.

As to pine trees growing in the natural range of the tortoises, so what???? Are torts climbing pine trees now and living among the branches and sap and oils like squirrels? Like Chris said, "In the wild a tortoise is not forced to stay on one particular substrate. If it wants to move off the pine into leaves, or create scrapes under a shrub or move onto a rocky area it can. In a wooden box with pine as the main bedding it has no escape so yes it can affect the animal without a doubt." Could not have said it better myself.

I posted a great article on substrates that clearly states the dangers of pine, written by someone that is much more experienced than you and I. I bet he wrote those opinions just to pick on you, too.

Kristina

 

[Ozric]

Hey! On a lighter note, newspaper is sterile. It hasn't got a single germ or anything on it at all, just paper and ink. Which is why Howard Hughes demanded that his dinner be served on it when he became rather unwell and had an obsessive disorder about cleanliness.

But, I'm not promoting newspaper as a substrate - no money to be made there.

We have really livened up this board with this issue, and I've enjoyed it. Even if I am a bit concerned about Edita feeling criticised, when nobody meant it that way.

 

[Maggie Cummings]

Edita, I am hoping you have your animals best interest at heart. So I am kind of concerned when I tell you that in my own experience one hatchling died and another was blinded by the toxins in a pine mulch substrate and you don't seem to accept the seriousness of what I am telling you. I personally don't ever want to go thru that experience again, and wouldn't wish that experience on my worst enemy. When you say you don't have an option I am kinda skeptical...there are always options. Aspen shavings are sold in all pet stores. Sterile potting soil is sold in all big box stores in the garden department. Chain pet stores like Petco or Petsmart all sell eco-earth, or coir...Having no substrate at all is better than having a blind or dead animal as was my experience and could be your experience also.

 

[Edita]

I will get over myself.
I took all your comments in and I will do my best.

Thank you

 

[tortoisenerd]

We're here to help so let us know if we can do anything. At least speaking for myself I'm an internet and tortoise addict. Best wishes.