Mostly a heating question.

[Lilithlee]

During my research for getting a russian tort, I have gather a few more questions.

Okay, with heating what better, a mercury vapor UVB light or a heat pad? I've read where some people ( and seen on youtube) use a heat pad.

With night lighting I know I'm suppose to get a ceramic heat emitter but what's the best color to get? White or Black. I thought black wasn't sure?

Last question, at least for now, I have an old wooden thing ( I have no idea what is orginally was.) It holds Dvd's right now, but I'm thing of turning it into a torts table. It's measurements are a bit over a foot length and three foot tall. I suck at measuring so if that doesn't sound right I"m sorry.

 

[GBtortoises]

Tortoises normally bask under the sun in the wild. Indoors in captivity a light/heat source become their sun. An overhead light is always preferable to a heat pad because the light produces light and heat. The heating pad provides heat from below their body which is a very unnatural (and less effective) way for them to absorb heat. They also require the light for normal activity which a pad doesn't provide either. Most mercury vapor UVB bulbs produce alot of heat so they need to be mounted far enough away so that they don't get too hot. The basking area directly below the center beam of the bulb should be in the range of 95-105 degrees. So the light needs to be moved in or out accordingly. The problem with any UVB light is that the farther you move it from the animal the less effective it becomes. I still prefer to use a regular incandscent light to provide heat and light and a tube style UVB light to provide artificial sunshine. By doing this the UVB light can be mounted in one spot without sacrificing it's efficiency and the incandescent light can provide basking heat and be moved in or out as necessary.

Your Russian tortoise should not require any night time heat unless the enclosure that it is being kept in gets below 55 degrees at night. Russian tortoises, as with many other Testudo species, do much better with a day to night temperatute difference of 20-25 degrees as they would experience in the wild.

A one foot by three foot enclosure is pretty small. Russian tortoises are very active and a small adult should be kept in a minimum of a 2' x 4' enclosure. Bigger is always better for them since they are terrestrial and roam their territory constantly. Ideally, they should be housed outdoors in a safe, secure enclosure as much as possible depending upon your living situation and the climate in your area.

 

[Lilithlee]

Okay, bigger is better... I can do bigger.

Thanks for the explaning heat light vs heat pad. I see why heat light is better.

 

[mreedosb]

Heating pads are not all created, or used, equally. {I.e., the sometimes dangerous - when improperly used - "hot rock" products. Poor quality adaptations of heat tape & human purposed pads. And also improperly located and managed high-temp overhead ceramic heaters. VS well designed, tested and proven animal heat pads.}

All herps and most amphibians require heat from below (ventral/belly heat) to properly digest their food. And that's acquired by basking ON a warm or hot suface. A surface that's been heated by the sun in nature, and in outdoor enclosures/settings when they are companion animals in captivity.
This is also a "common sense" conclusion; proven in care & based on the easily observed fact that all cold bloods seek a sun-warmed spot to lie ON while absorbing sunlight From Above. {If it was only about light and warmth from above, these animals would be less selective about their basking location.}

Quality heat pads designed for use with animals, used & regulated properly, are absolutely necessary for captive animals both indoors and outdoors for a limited amount of time, almost every day of the year.

Contact users with the California Turtle & Tortoise Association, commercial breeder Brad Morris Reptiles or The Sulcata Station advice sheets for references and advice on keeping & caring for a variety of animal types.

 

[GBtortoises]

mreedosb: I have to disagree with much of what you stated above.

Heat pads can be beneficial as supplemental heat in some cases as in when someone is keeping a tortoise that requires warmer night time temperatures than the temperature of the room or the outdoor enclosure that they are in. But heatpads should never be used as a primary or exclusive heat source. Heat pads are by no means "absolutely necessary" for any species of tortoise and very few species of amphibians. It comes down to the species of tortoise that someone in keeping and the climate that they're keeping it in. Which is exactly why anyone should learn the requirements of the species that they intend to keep and their own climate and surrounding environment. In most cases where arid and sub tropical (and tropical) species are being kept in climates outside of their own some form of supplemental heat is required at night and on cool overcast days when kept outdoors. Indoors it all depends upon ambient room temperature as to whether supplemental heat is required at night.

It is also not true that tortoises absorb their primary heat from below. First of all, heat from above automatically produces radiant heat from below, it's unavoidable. But bottom heat is still not the primarly source of heat that a tortoise seeks. If that were the case tortoises would bask on what heats up first and the quickest in full sun, rocks and or other solid, high heat absorbing materials. Yet they almost always bask on bare ground instead. It's not the heat below them that gives them optimum basking temperatures it's their exposure to full sun and the angle of their body to that sun. That is why some tortoises, especially on cooler sunlit spring and fall days, will position their bodies in almost vertical positions propped up against something. Because the sun is at a lower angle in the sky. In order for them to get the maximum exposure they need to position their bodies in a way to do so. If bottom heat were the primary source of heat absorbtion why wouldn't they simply go lay on a flat rock?

Tortoises bask in order for their bodies to reach normal activity levels, part of that activity is food digestion. But they do not bask solely for the purpose of food digestion. They bask in order to reach normal activity temperatures to eat, become more functional and yes, to digest. But digestion does take place at temperatures far below those obtained from basking and it continues until the tortoise's body reaches a temperature several degrees below normal activity levels.


Russian tortoises by no means whatsoever require a source of bottom heat indoors or outdoors if maintained within the correct environmental parameters for their species. In fact most if given the opportunity to do so, will shy away from extreme heat once they reach the point of normal activity temperatures. This is also true of many other species.

 

[mreedosb]

GB - I'm glad to see you do agree with some of what I've said, as all the statements I made are taken from experienced and successful keepers I've dealt with for many years, as I have no personal experience with these animals. Many of my contacts are well respected experts in the field and have raised and cared for tortoises for many decades.
You too, obviously, have far greater first hand experience, and make a number of useful observations. Unfortunately, you do no great service to your own views by snobbishly striving to disclaim and discredit those I have shared.
I question some of your "disagreement with much of what I said", in that you cite no scientific sources or studies for your fiats. And often seem to hinge your criticism on personal observations couched in the, "If that were true..." language of accusation, rather than empirical science. Your entire approach of, "If... , why.." doesn't prove a point, it merely attacks and dismisses a differing point, with no hard evidence.
It's obvious that you are a true believer in the sun, giver of light and heat, being above all things great and small; but your approach to educating we simpletons is pontifical rather than scientific. (You might note to yourself that lying on "flat rocks"; at various times of day in the evening, on cloudy days and night hours is quite popular (required?) with many desert cold bloods - check a hwy after dark sometime. Tough to stay warm & active in deserts, at night - when there is not sun.)
Will gladly with-hold my snarky sense of superiority - and grasp of the obvious, if you'll do the same. And I really would enjoy learning more about these creatures.

mreedosb: I have to disagree with much of what you stated above.

Heat pads can be beneficial as supplemental heat in some cases as in when someone is keeping a tortoise that requires warmer night time temperatures than the temperature of the room or the outdoor enclosure that they are in. But heatpads should never be used as a primary or exclusive heat source. Heat pads are by no means "absolutely necessary" for any species of tortoise and very few species of amphibians. It comes down to the species of tortoise that someone in keeping and the climate that they're keeping it in. Which is exactly why anyone should learn the requirements of the species that they intend to keep and their own climate and surrounding environment. In most cases where arid and sub tropical (and tropical) species are being kept in climates outside of their own some form of supplemental heat is required at night and on cool overcast days when kept outdoors. Indoors it all depends upon ambient room temperature as to whether supplemental heat is required at night.

It is also not true that tortoises absorb their primary heat from below. First of all, heat from above automatically produces radiant heat from below, it's unavoidable. But bottom heat is still not the primarly source of heat that a tortoise seeks. If that were the case tortoises would bask on what heats up first and the quickest in full sun, rocks and or other solid, high heat absorbing materials. Yet they almost always bask on bare ground instead. It's not the heat below them that gives them optimum basking temperatures it's their exposure to full sun and the angle of their body to that sun. That is why some tortoises, especially on cooler sunlit spring and fall days, will position their bodies in almost vertical positions propped up against something. Because the sun is at a lower angle in the sky. In order for them to get the maximum exposure they need to position their bodies in a way to do so. If bottom heat were the primary source of heat absorbtion why wouldn't they simply go lay on a flat rock?

Tortoises bask in order for their bodies to reach normal activity levels, part of that activity is food digestion. But they do not bask solely for the purpose of food digestion. They bask in order to reach normal activity temperatures to eat, become more functional and yes, to digest. But digestion does take place at temperatures far below those obtained from basking and it continues until the tortoise's body reaches a temperature several degrees below normal activity levels.


Russian tortoises by no means whatsoever require a source of bottom heat indoors or outdoors if maintained within the correct environmental parameters for their species. In fact most if given the opportunity to do so, will shy away from extreme heat once they reach the point of normal activity temperatures. This is also true of many other species.

 

[Yvonne G]

Hi mreedosb:

Welcome to the forum!!

You're new here, so you don't quite understand how we do things here. We are very different from other forums and list servs in that we allow and actively encourage differing opinions on how to care for our turtles and tortoises.

We have an open mind and welcome new ideas and differing ways. Please continue to express YOUR opinion on caring for your tortoises, however, some of the folks you referred to in your original post are spouting the old school of thought, and if you belong to those list servs, you soon realize that they only have one way to care for all the tortoises, and no one is allowed a different opinion. Some of the sulcata care shown on Sulcata Station is very old. There are new ways of care being discovered every day and we must all keep an open mind and be willing to try new things.

Having said all that, I'm one of the ones who believes in pig blankets and belly heat. But that doesn't mean that GBTortoises and others can't have their opinion on the matter.

We're very glad to welcome you into our group and hope to read a lot about your views in the future!

 

[Madkins007]

My take on the discussion is: it depends.

If you are lucky enough to live in a place or have a room or home where the ambient temps are high enough that the substrate stays warm normally, then you probably do not need undersoil heating.

However, if you live in a place where the substrate is cool or clammy, then heating from below can be beneficial. Most heat from above does not penetrate too deeply, nor do most of our habitats act as enough thermal mass to retain heat for much time into the night.

Another way to look at this is that in the wild the substrate rarely steals heat from the tortoises while in captivity, it happens all the time. A bit of warmth from underneath can counteract it.

 

[jackrat]

My take on the discussion is: it depends.

If you are lucky enough to live in a place or have a room or home where the ambient temps are high enough that the substrate stays warm normally, then you probably do not need undersoil heating.

However, if you live in a place where the substrate is cool or clammy, then heating from below can be beneficial. Most heat from above does not penetrate too deeply, nor do most of our habitats act as enough thermal mass to retain heat for much time into the night.

Another way to look at this is that in the wild the substrate rarely steals heat from the tortoises while in captivity, it happens all the time. A bit of warmth from underneath can counteract it.

Mark,there's something I'm not getting here.How can the substrate be cooler than the ambient temprature? Keep the ambient temprature favorable and the substrate should be favorable,right? My question is,in your scenario,what is cooling the substrate to a temprature lower than the ambient air?

 

[Tom]

Hey Jackrat. Everyones situation is different, but here we get nights in the 30's pretty commonly and occasionally in the 20's through winter. Even thought the air temps in my tort shed stay in the 60's, the ground, away from the heat mats, is often in the forties. Same thing in my garage. We can have 80 degree days in January, but due the the cold nights that concrete slab just stays 50-55 all winter long. Even with air temps in the garage occasionally reaching into the low 70's that slab just stays cool and sucks the heat out of every thing. That's why I hibernate every thing on the floor in my garage.

 

[jackrat]

Gotcha,Tom.That answered my question perfectly.Thanks.

 

[Az tortoise compound]

For what it's worth,

From the way I read the first post from Mreedosb, it sounded like a heating pad is superior to heat and light from above. I disagree completely.
The correct variety of heating pad can be useful as a supplement, definitely not "absolutely necessary". It will depend on your location and time of year. In cold country during winter at night or when it's overcast for extended periods would be the only times you would "have" to use one.
My Russians move towards the east facing wall of their enclosure just before sunrise and stand like they are being frisked (hands on the wall). The sun hasn't risen at that point enough to provide a warm wall. They do this to soak up the sunshine on their back not warm their belly with residual wall heat. The east facing wall (12" high) is the only one they go to. Not the 6 foot west and north walls that would hold more heat.

Sun= 1st place
Artificial heat and light from above= runner up
quality heat mat or pig blanket= Bronze medal

 

[Tom]

In my area AND my opinion AND my experience, heat mats are only good for adult torts that live outside all the time. I don't use them for babies or indoor torts at all, but my big sulcatas would have a tough time making it through winter without them.

(Well, my sulcatas aren't really "big", but they are adults.)

 

[Madkins007]

Mark,there's something I'm not getting here.How can the substrate be cooler than the ambient temprature? Keep the ambient temprature favorable and the substrate should be favorable,right? My question is,in your scenario,what is cooling the substrate to a temprature lower than the ambient air?


[/quote]

While Tom already answered this nicely, I'd like to add a couple points.

As you know, heat moves through conduction, convection, and radiation. Our substrates are usually a rather insulative material that resists being heated and does not generally hold heat well. This means that the radiated heat barely penetrates it, and the material does not easily conduct heat into it.

Add some moisture, and a lot of the heat energy is used in evaporating it- which leads to evaporative cooling. Also, the warmed air is trying as hard as it can to rise out of the habitat, figuratively sucking cold from the outer room behind it (assuming you have a cool room, which was one of my conditions for using sub-soil heating). Insulation slows the process, but generally cannot stop it.

What we often end up with is a warm top layer that is actually holding very little heat- lay a hand on it to block the overhead heat and you can feel it get cooler as you absorb the little heat it had stored up.

We see this in the wild and in our own homes all the time- warm rooms with chilly hard-surfaced floors, or the effects of laying on the ground on a warm spring evening and feeling the cold earth beneath us.

Now- IF the ambient air in the room the habitat is in is 80F, and the habitat is not touching the ground or another large mass that could conduct heat away, THEN your comment would be correct- everything in that box should be about 80F (minus the effects of evaporative cooling with the damp substrate and other microclimate issues.)

But I cannot afford to heat very many rooms in my old house in Nebraska's climate to 80F We are doing well to get it to the low 70's.