Mouth problem!! HEEEELP!!!

[armandoarturo]

Hello, Im in panic in here...
I just found out that one of my tortoise has something strange in mouth.
I dont know if it can be mouth rot, or herpes, or I just dont know
She came out of the burrow and I just came closer to pet her, and I noticed something wrong in the mouth!!!
Im going crazy, Ive always do everything the right way, I dont know how this could happen to me.
I need help please, vet visit wont work for me, theres NO good vet around my area, (Mex)..
It will just make me waste time and money, I have tried vets, but NONE of them actually know anything about reptiles.
I moved the tortoise inside the house, to avoid contact with my other ones, as quarantine.
PLEASE help me!!!

Here are two pictures and also a video.

Tongue and the mouth inside looks fine (to me), but im not expert on mouth, actually I have never faced this!!

 

[Yvonne G]

Are you talking about the little lump at the corner of the mouth on the outside? It's hard to say, but I would just keep an eye on it and see if it grows. It may just be a thickening of skin where an injury was.

Also, your tortoise looks a little bit thin to me. His upper arms don't seem to have much meat on them. I would offer him as much or more than he'll eat.

 

[armandoarturo]

its on both sides of the mouth, it doesnt looks good to me at all..
They graze freely around, and I also throw lots of opuntia pads, squash, opuntia fruits, alfalfa and more, in the backyard.
They eat anytime they want, its not like I go behind them...
but you are right, she is very light

 

[armandoarturo]

@Yvonne G if you take a look at the video you will be able to see the other side :/

 

[Ciri]

Those bumps do look strange. I can really understand your concern. I'm wondering if a reptile veterinarian might be able to look at your video and get an idea of what the potential problems are that would cause this. The San Diego turtle and tortoise Society has several listed on their page, and my reptile veterinarian who is very good with desert tortoises and other reptiles might be somebody you could contact. His name is Dr. James Jarchow: 520-877-2626. I would also suggest looking into desert tortoise research in Mexico, as any wildlife biologists doing such research might have an idea of somebody who could help you. He might know about such research, as well.

If this problem is related to the immune system, I would give the tortoise Astragalus. Of course it's really hard to know what the cause is. I have asked my reptile veterinarian in the past if it was okay to give Astragalus and he said yes. He didn't think it would be particularly helpful, but at the time felt it would not do any harm. I buy organic astragalus only. I prefer to buy the root pieces and boil them, giving the tortoise just the tea made from this process.

Good luck with your tortoise.

 

[armandoarturo]

Theres none, Im for sure
Still, I will go and visit the vet right now..
Im sure it wont be of much help, but I will try everything.
I just hope someone in here suggest me what can be, so I can look up for more symptoms in the tortoise, and help the vet.
I really hope its not contagious and, it doesnt spread all over my other tortoises

 

[Ciri]

This is just a thought – perhaps when you take her to the veterinarian, you could ask him to contact a reptile specialist veterinarian in the US to try to get their help to find out what is wrong. With humans, doctors consult with each other all the time. Maybe a reptile veterinarian here could help your veterinarian to decipher what is causing those bumps. It's good that you're keeping her separate from the others. It's also encouraging that she is still eating.

I don't see anything in the corners of her mouth where the swellings are that looks like an infection. But the swellings to remind me of an infection that one of my box turtles got in the corner of her mouth. It was only on one side, and when she opened her mouth there was a red area in the corner of her mouth. I'm trying to remember how my veterinarian treated it – probably with a topical antibiotic ointment. But if there's no redness, then it's not so likely to be an infection.

I'm sure she is very precious to you. I'm hoping this all clears up very soon.

 

[ascott]

Looks like a healing abscess .....I would be sure to flush the torts mouth a few times a day with warm water....I too would just keep an eye on the area...if the tort is eating and acting business as usual, then I would really just keep an eye on it.....is it excreting any fluid or puss?

 

[armandoarturo]

So.....I went to the vet. And let me tell you guys that I do feel a bit relaxed now.
I was going to wait until tomorrow, but when I was on bed, I couldn't stop thinking about posting this, to see what you guys think.

So... I went to the vet, and we took a good look at the mouth and everything seems good.
mouth on the inside looks good, no signs of mouth rot, or something like that..
She says its not a respiratory infection. She examined the lungs, and everything seems to be ok.
She thinks the tortoise could have had some food leftovers on the sides, which caused the infection.
Or, some kind of injury or something like that.
This might also have something to do with the low weight, since she wasn't feeling good for "going out for a bite".

The vet removed all the crusts around :S, and cleaned and disinfected very deeply.
And she gave me:
- Silver sulphadiazine... which will be applied in the wounds
- Baytril injections every 48hours (10 times) ... (..20 days)

My tortoise will be getting a raise up in temperatures, and quarantine. She will be indoors during the nights, and will be in a box with a sunny side to warm up and a shadowy side to cool down.
Im also going to be paying much attention to food intake, and will be providing warm soaks daily.

And...... it also seems that someone wont be brumating this year...

Any suggestions??
What do you guys think about the diagnose and the medicines?

Here are some pictures:

- Open mouth:


Another look of the mouth:





One of the sides after removing the crusty skin:

The other side:

 

[ChloeCrull]

So.....I went to the vet. And let me tell you guys that I do feel a bit relaxed now.
I was going to wait until tomorrow, but when I was on bed, I couldn't stop thinking about posting this, to see what you guys think.

So... I went to the vet, and we took a good look at the mouth and everything seems good.
mouth on the inside looks good, no signs of mouth rot, or something like that..
She says its not a respiratory infection. She examined the lungs, and everything seems to be ok.
She thinks the tortoise could have had some food leftovers on the sides, which caused the infection.
Or, some kind of injury or something like that.
This might also have something to do with the low weight, since she wasn't feeling good for "going out for a bite".

The vet removed all the crusts around :S, and cleaned and disinfected very deeply.
And she gave me:
- Silver sulphadiazine... which will be applied in the wounds
- Baytril injections every 48hours (10 times) ... (..20 days)

My tortoise will be getting a raise up in temperatures, and quarantine. She will be indoors during the nights, and will be in a box with a sunny side to warm up and a shadowy side to cool down.
Im also going to be paying much attention to food intake, and will be providing warm soaks daily.

And...... it also seems that someone wont be brumating this year...

Any suggestions??
What do you guys think about the diagnose and the medicines?

Here are some pictures:

- Open mouth:
View attachment 103460

Another look of the mouth:

View attachment 103461



One of the sides after removing the crusty skin:
View attachment 103462
The other side:

View attachment 103463


View attachment 103464

Thank you for sharing the vet experience with us! I'm very sorry to hear that your tortoise had to go through (what seems to be) a painful process. I believe that the veterinarian offered you a fair diagnosis and treatment. She seems to be knowledgeable regarding her reptiles, as she even mentioned the quarantine and raised temperatures during the healing process. I cannot personally judge the prescribed medicine, but maybe someone else can. You can also search Google for some more information on the silver sulphadiazine.

Please let us know how your tortoise is doing from time to time. Any updates (even daily) would be appreciated. It's a very interesting case and if someone else has a similar problem, they will be appreciative that you have provided this information and experience for them.

Has your tortoise been eating more? Is your tortoise showing any signs of increased stress? How do you handle the baytril injections?

 

[leigti]

I definitely think it is good not to hibernate her this year. Did they check for parasites? since she will be away from the other tortoises this will give her a chance to eat on her own, and maybe put on some weight. I don't know anything about the medications but it does sound like your vet was knowledgeable. Keep us updated.

 

[pam]

Thank you for sharing

 

[ascott]

So essentially the vet cleaned the areas....? So does that mean there was just dried on food stuck to the side of the face/mouth---do you offer this tort a place to soak daily? What type of foods are you offering the tort? I find that this is weird....I mean, if the foods offered are correct and water is offered then the tort would have the tools necessary to maintain itself....if the tort was with other torts and there was a battle for food---then I can see some damage occurring as a result of that....how many torts was this animal forced captive with before you separated them?

 

[ascott]

Also, understand that open wounds have now been created....if the tort is going to remain outdoors during the day the tort will be left helpless to fly strikes and maggots in the open wounds.....

 

[Yvonne G]

I've seen this before Armando. That's why I answered like I did originally. Somehow or other, the tortoise has his mouth open and either he gets bumped or is pushed, forcing the mouth open even further, which causes cuts at the corners of the mouth.

Now that it has been debrided, you'll need to continue the use of the silver medication. This will keep the flesh from growing in a lump like it did before. This is called proud flesh.

While the tortoise is healing, I would cut the food up small so it doesn't have to open its mouth very wide to eat.

 

[Ciri]

I think that the silver sulphadiazine might be the same thing that my vet had me use for my box turtle when she got infection in the corner of her mouth. I don't recall him doing injections though. I would suggest seeing if you can get a second opinion from a reptile veterinarian on treatment. I would suggest calling around and asking if you can get a consultation through email or telephone. You can try my vet – he might do it, and is in the office this morning. 10 shots of Baytril sounds to me like way too much. Of course I don't know what the dosage is for each injection. Also, in some cases Baytril can cause a reaction. My reptile vet has switched to a different antibiotic that he feels is safer in turtles and tortoises. He has used Baytril when the other antibiotic hasn't done the job, but he always uses the safer one first. I will look for the name of that other antibiotic, I just can't remember it right now.

When she first opened the mouth of your tortoise, was there any redness in the corners of her mouth? If not, it's probably not infected. It looks a little pinkish now, but she had been cleaning in that area and that might have caused the pinkness. Although I've never seen this in the desert tortoise, a couple of my box turtles have had those lumps in the corners of their mouths from shedding. However, that shouldn't affect how well they are eating, or their weight.

You haven't mentioned - is this a desert tortoise? It's a little hard to tell by the pictures.

 

[Ciri]

I think the antibiotic was Fortaz. I'm not absolutely certain about that, but I'm sure that he's used it at some point. His normal course of antibiotics is three shots. He will do four for a respiratory infection that isn't clearing after three shots. I've looked at the video again, and I don't see any redness in the corners of her mouth – that's why I didn't suggest it was an infection. The silver sulphadiazine seems like a good, safe treatment, as long as she doesn't get it in to her food. My vet taught me to just put on a thin layer – just enough. And I always applied it at the time of day that she wasn't about to eat or drink water.

I know it's hard, but I really suggest trying to consult with a reptile specialist. I'm concerned that the veterinarian you're using is over-treating, and that could be dangerous for your tortoise. If it were me, I would try calling every reptile veterinarian on the veterinarian list on this website, until I found someone who would be willing to do a consultation. People now use Skype for doctors appointments on occasion, it's harder with animals but I don't see any reason that a veterinarian couldn't do that for you as well. Keep us posted. Hope she's feeling better.

 

[armandoarturo]

@ascott
I dont know if that was essentially, but she did, and to be honest, theres nothing I can do than trust her.
She is the only vet around that treats exotic pets. Unfortunately.
Space is enough, my backyard is big enough for them, they do not compete for food. Theres plenty of food. I have 5 adult tortoises.
They graze around the yard, I have full cover of grasses, theres also weeds, and I also throw lots of food daily, which they eat if they want to. (opuntia pads, opuntia fruits, alfalfa, turnip greens, squash and more).
You are right about the maggots. The tortoise will stay indoors with UV and heat lamp.

@Yvonne G
You are right Yvonne, thats what I think it was, I believe the tortoise has a beak problem, and somehow is hurting herself, wich is causing the problem.
Do you think it was good that it was debrided?
I will continue with the silver medication, the vet told me to use it every 24 hours... is that enough?
I will hand feed her, with small pieces just like you said. I did think of that. Thanks a lot.
Thanks a lot Yvonne, I believe you did get what its happening in here. Any more advice you can give me?

@Ciri
Thanks a lot.
I will take another opinion today, I will be calling another vet that is from south Mexico, and see what does he thinks of this.
I will also make sure she doesnt ingest it while she is eating. To be honest we did not see any mushy, or serious infection, nor any Pus.
and the vet said that it was good to see that.
I believe the antibiotic is more for preventing an infection, than getting rid of it.

Thanks everyone!!!! I truly appreciate all your support!!!! I really do

 

[Yvonne G]

It sounded to me as if the vet was pretty much on the ball. She did the right thing. And the silver cream keeps the proud flesh from growing again, allowing the wound to heal cleanly.

 

[armandoarturo]

Great to know!
Thanks a lot!!!