Mr Pumblechook wants to hibernate?

[Mr Magoo]

Hi,
I'm new to keeping tortoises, this is my first, a Russian called Mr Pumblechook. Since I upgraded his enclosure to give him some room to dig, he has dug.
The new enclosure has a deep end with a significant amount of sand/topsoil mix, which is obviously colder than the rest of his habitat. It's been about a week now, and he has spent almost all his time burrowed down about 9-10 inches. I have excavated him on a couple of occasions and offered food and given a bath, he wanders round a bit when he gets warmed up but later goes and buries himself again.

Would he be attempting to hibernate? It's winter here and the house is getting colder, but he has had the same 12 hrs of fake light and heat from his combination UVB/heat light. If he is attempting to hibernate, should I let him? Or do I need to keep him from burrowing and eating for a couple of weeks to clear his gut? He is only in his second year, I have had him for four months, he has gained weight steadily throughout that time. I had him checked out by a vet when I got him, so I think it's safe to say he's a healthy little tortoise.

This thread has details of the enclosure:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/Thread-Opinions-on-my-enclosure-please?pid=346815#pid346815

Thanks in advance for any advice experienced russian keepers can give

 

[GBtortoises]

I doubt very much that heis attempting to hibernate. Unless the temperature in your house is consistently below 50 degrees, which I doubt! From what you describe he hasn't been in his new enclosure long enough to become acclimated and secure in it yet. Many tortoises will hide for some time when placed in a new environment until they feel secure. When you say that he is 'in his second year' do you mean that he is two years old or he has been in captivity for two years?
The light that he is exposed to needs to be longer than 12 hours a day for normal activity. A duration of 14-16 hours a day is more condusive to normal activity. You don't mention what the temperatures are within your tortoise's enclosure. Ambient daytime temperatures should be in the range of the low 70's to very low 80's with a temperature under the basking light should be around 95-110. Night times 55-65.
Russian tortoises are burrowers by nature and will almost always dig into the substrate if given the opportunity. They will also often spend much of their time buried depending upon environmental conditions on the surface. Temperatures, light duration, light intensity and heat all determine what their actions will be.

 

[Mr Magoo]

Thanks for the response, I guess I'll give him another week or so and see if he returns to his old habit of wandering around.
By in his second year I meant between 1-2 years old, he was captive bred and bought from a reputable dealer recommended by the specialist vet I use for my ancient corn snake.

I have a combination heat/uv light raised 12 inches above the substrate, it's a 100W D3 bulb, and produces a temperature in the hot end of 90 F, the table is four feet long so the cool end is basically room temperature varying around 70 F. I'll increase the time I leave it on for to 14 hours, would you recommend increasing the wattage to give him a bit more heat too? He was fairly active in the old enclosure, which had exactly the same set up in the hot end. The new one just has a deeper cool end, with a different substrate at that end only.

Also, what are your thoughts on hibernation? I'm finding conflicting advice. I have a book on 'popular tortoises' that states Russians need to be hibernated to stay healthy, contradicting some info I've found online recommending no hibernation at all. I've also read they need to be hibernated to breed, but I have no intention of breeding them.

 

[GBtortoises]

If the temperature directly under the basking light is 90 degrees it should be increased to somewhere within 95-110 degrees. If the 90 degree temperature is the ambient temperature away from the basking light it's too hot. Maybe it's just the photos that you posted but the enclosure overall appears to be dark. Or at least half of it does. Russians thrive on light, lots of light. They are very active if given plenty of intense light to draw them out of hiding in the morning.

It is absolutely not true that Russians need to hibernate (brumate). While they do brumate in the wild it is out of necessity that they do so in order to escape extreme cold and long period without food availability. In captivity those hardships are not present. Essentially, brumation is a survival technique, one that if not done correctly in captivity can have fatal consequences. The argument in the past has been that not brumating a tortoise may take some years off it's life. There is absolutely no proof of that whatsoever. A tortoise brumated incorrectly may also take many years of it's life and in a much quicker period of time. For most people, it's not worth the risk. There is some proof that some species of tortoise do breed more consistently when brumated. But many breeders have also had sucess with breeding tortoises, most notably Russian tortoises, without ever brumating them.

 

[Mr Magoo]

It's 90 under the light, i'll look into getting a more powerful one or a second heat only lamp. Brightness isn't a problem, I just took the pictures on my iphone 3gs, which does not handle contrast very well. It's very bright in there when on, though that won't help draw him out from 9 inches or so under soil/sand mix. No amount of light would penetrate to the depth he's burrowing to. I made it pretty deep because he was always scrabbling at the bottom when he went to bed down for the night in the old enclosure.

 

[SailingMystic]

Mine was doing the same thing-- but comes out to munch now about every other day or so. Actually he was hiding for three days-- And today was out under his light smiling up at me!! I was shocked and made a mountain of fresh organic greens and stuff. He's been returning to the "food spot" regularly now took a while though!

 

[lynnedit]

Before you get a new wattage MVB (UV/Heat), look into adjusting the height. The bulb can be 12" from the tort's shell (no closer). Most manufacturers recommend 12-18" away from the bulb (not the fixture).
Keep the light (timer if necessary) on 12- 14 hours per day, especially in winter.
Also make sure you are using a good thermometer:
http://www.tortoisesupply.com/exo-terra-digital-thermometer/ or
http://www.tortoisesupply.com/products/Temp-Gun-PE1.html.
(he is a member of our forum, they are examples of good products).

Having a reliable way to measure temps is essential.
It also might be that he is just 'being a tort' and will perk up in a few days. Still worth it to make sure the conditions are right.

 

[GeoTerraTestudo]

If the temperature directly under the basking light is 90 degrees it should be increased to somewhere within 95-110 degrees. If the 90 degree temperature is the ambient temperature away from the basking light it's too hot. Maybe it's just the photos that you posted but the enclosure overall appears to be dark. Or at least half of it does. Russians thrive on light, lots of light. They are very active if given plenty of intense light to draw them out of hiding in the morning.

It is absolutely not true that Russians need to hibernate (brumate). While they do brumate in the wild it is out of necessity that they do so in order to escape extreme cold and long period without food availability. In captivity those hardships are not present. Essentially, brumation is a survival technique, one that if not done correctly in captivity can have fatal consequences. The argument in the past has been that not brumating a tortoise may take some years off it's life. There is absolutely no proof of that whatsoever. A tortoise brumated incorrectly may also take many years of it's life and in a much quicker period of time. For most people, it's not worth the risk. There is some proof that some species of tortoise do breed more consistently when brumated. But many breeders have also had sucess with breeding tortoises, most notably Russian tortoises, without ever brumating them.

GB and I are in some disagreement on this point. While I agree that not all tortoises need to brumate in captivity, I think that some feel the need to do so - even at room temperature - when natural day length gets shorter, or when the ambient air gets imperceptibly cooler or drier. Thus, even if you provide them with the same conditions year round (the same levels of basic light and heat), they will still notice that the light coming from the window is getting shorter, and they may also pick up on decreased temperature and humidity in the ambient atmosphere. You would have to spend a lot of money creating a big, closed-off area with a lot of light, heat, and humidity to maintain the illusion that it's still summertime. Otherwise, they're going to notice that winter is coming, and even if they don't really need to (i.e. it's not going to be particularly cold and dry inside your home), they are still going to hunker down and try to brumate.

That has been my experience with my Russians this year. From April to August they were very active, but when September rolled around they became less so, even though their enclosure itself hadn't changed. They experienced a small peak in activity in October (as they would in nature) but then remained buried and ceased eating again. Thus, in November I decided to let them brumate, probably until March - again, as they would in nature.

Again, I think they were picking up on the shortening natural day length, and perhaps a change in the air inside our home as well. Not because it was particularly harsh (it's still indoors, after all), or because we had prematurely shut off their lights and heat, but because they just picked up on subtle cues to hunker down and prepare for the coming winter - even indoors.

I am glad I am hibernating them (in a mini-fridge) because otherwise they would be burning up their fat reserves at room temperature more quickly. This is my first time hibernating a turtle in a refrigerator (my box turtles had brumated outdoors), but given my tortoises' behavior, I think it is the right thing to do.

 

[ascott]

I truly tried to remain quiet on this thread...I believe that there are many reasons a burrowing tortoise does just that....I also agree that no matter how much effort we silly humans (with our big ole smart thumbs) make...evolution is a much more powerful, intelligent source of survival that has hard wired our burrowing tortoise to be, to do, to desire to do just that....it is "part" of their evolutionary survival skills----we love our tortoise, we love to see our tortoise, we love to have them at our disposal when ever we feel it necessary....I think that part of owning a burrowing tortoise is to IN FACT learn the correct methods in which to allow brumation....I see alot of talk that it is too dangerous, of which I agree in some situations that is absolutely correct (under weight--no chub from the legs the neck the booty area etc or a tortoise that just was treated for medical conditions).

I believe that we all spend alot of time figuring out food, food that is good, food that is pretty in an enclosure as well as good etc when, in MY opinion, we need to spend as much time figuring out how to allow our burrowing tortoise do just what they are designed to do as it is after all part of their tortoiseness---we owe them to become in the know on this subject vs shunning it because it may be a little tricky and scary....none of us will be alive long enough to see through the mega years needed to make an evolutionary change in any species of tortoise to successfully change a burrowing tortoise into a non burrowing tortoise...it just is not possible....

I have CDTs, while in years past I have allowed them to do what it is the good Lord found best for them to do....out 24/7 all seasons, they did fine...then this year and last year on my property the increased rain, the increase freezing temps have made my property not an ideal place any longer for them to brumate outdoors, while this is very sad to me I have made arrangements to allow them to brumate indoors from Nov 1 to likely Feb-March....

We can turn on the lights for longer, we can bump the temps, we can "force" them to stay awake---for what reason I am always wanting to know? Is it so that we can see out tortoise when we want to....is it because we humans think we know best...is it because we just "feel" they would like it better? that they should think it is better that we have provided food, shelter, warmth and removed most predatory sources and so now they should think "bitchen, we have it made" this is a human emotion.... Well, this would then make any Falcon, any Hawk any Eagle feel grateful to be contained in an atrium to be grateful in the same way? I do not think so....people forget that tortoise are designed to survive (survive and in doing so thrive) and if we remove too much of what they are designed to do---we create problems for them as burrowing tortoise are not designed to remain awake constantly...there are changes that happen in the life of a burrowing tortoise that have to happen to allow them to play out their life...again, this is in my humble opinion and based on loads of research as well as observation....

I do not share my opinion to anger, to sway, to try to force any newbie care giver to offer brumation....I do share my opinion to allow other newbies to begin their own research and to understand that while brumation is always an option it is also part of a burrowing tortoise evolutionary wonders..... and as much time is put into diet and enclosure needs---burrowing tortoise have the need to brumate and we owe it to them to become a knowledgable source to encourage this stage of their life as we do every other part.....it is like we pick and choose what stuff to learn by our comfort level...that just is not fair to our burrowing tortoise to cheat them out of being and doing as they are designed to do.....again, IMHO.

 

[SailingMystic]

I truly tried to remain quiet on this thread...I believe that there are many reasons a burrowing tortoise does just that....I also agree that no matter how much effort we silly humans (with our big ole smart thumbs) make...evolution is a much more powerful, intelligent source of survival that has hard wired our burrowing tortoise to be, to do, to desire to do just that....it is "part" of their evolutionary survival skills----we love our tortoise, we love to see our tortoise, we love to have them at our disposal when ever we feel it necessary....I think that part of owning a burrowing tortoise is to IN FACT learn the correct methods in which to allow brumation....I see alot of talk that it is too dangerous, of which I agree in some situations that is absolutely correct (under weight--no chub from the legs the neck the booty area etc or a tortoise that just was treated for medical conditions).

I believe that we all spend alot of time figuring out food, food that is good, food that is pretty in an enclosure as well as good etc when, in MY opinion, we need to spend as much time figuring out how to allow our burrowing tortoise do just what they are designed to do as it is after all part of their tortoiseness---we owe them to become in the know on this subject vs shunning it because it may be a little tricky and scary....none of us will be alive long enough to see through the mega years needed to make an evolutionary change in any species of tortoise to successfully change a burrowing tortoise into a non burrowing tortoise...it just is not possible....

I have CDTs, while in years past I have allowed them to do what it is the good Lord found best for them to do....out 24/7 all seasons, they did fine...then this year and last year on my property the increased rain, the increase freezing temps have made my property not an ideal place any longer for them to brumate outdoors, while this is very sad to me I have made arrangements to allow them to brumate indoors from Nov 1 to likely Feb-March....

We can turn on the lights for longer, we can bump the temps, we can "force" them to stay awake---for what reason I am always wanting to know? Is it so that we can see out tortoise when we want to....is it because we humans think we know best...is it because we just "feel" they would like it better? that they should think it is better that we have provided food, shelter, warmth and removed most predatory sources and so now they should think "bitchen, we have it made" this is a human emotion.... Well, this would then make any Falcon, any Hawk any Eagle feel grateful to be contained in an atrium to be grateful in the same way? I do not think so....people forget that tortoise are designed to survive (survive and in doing so thrive) and if we remove too much of what they are designed to do---we create problems for them as burrowing tortoise are not designed to remain awake constantly...there are changes that happen in the life of a burrowing tortoise that have to happen to allow them to play out their life...again, this is in my humble opinion and based on loads of research as well as observation....

I do not share my opinion to anger, to sway, to try to force any newbie care giver to offer brumation....I do share my opinion to allow other newbies to begin their own research and to understand that while brumation is always an option it is also part of a burrowing tortoise evolutionary wonders..... and as much time is put into diet and enclosure needs---burrowing tortoise have the need to brumate and we owe it to them to become a knowledgable source to encourage this stage of their life as we do every other part.....it is like we pick and choose what stuff to learn by our comfort level...that just is not fair to our burrowing tortoise to cheat them out of being and doing as they are designed to do.....again, IMHO.

Where's the "Like" button when you need one?? !! I agree totally ... my turtle that I've had for over 25 years is still teaching me new things I love her! My new Tort Hemi is also choosing to lay low for most days. It's their choice They have plenty of food and stuff- but it's their process within the best world that I can provide for them, that I enjoy so much. Now there are days when my husband asks me if we really have a tortoise !! LOL... But he's healthy and active (the Tort). I know he's doing OK and he runs around with his turtle sister once in a while too. They have their own routines and I give them options-- and they take them . Thanks for sharing.

 

[lynnedit]

Torts are all different. I think everyone is right, because there is a lot of variability. My torts hid/burrowed in May and June, just because. Huh? Had to dig them out sometimes. No change in their environment.
They spent a lot of time outside this summer, and became more and more active.
Now they show no signs of wanting to slow down. I am not forcing them to winter over, they are choosing to. In this case, I would have to force them to brumate.
I do think that newbies should try to avoid brumation, if possible, because it takes some knowledge and skill, and you do want your tort to be healthy to do it. Wait a year if possible. But if you know a lot about it, and your torts are healthy and want to, go for it.
Next year, if my torts slow down after an active summer/fall, and are healthy, you can bet I will listen to them.
The fridge is ready.